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Sump removal; How to?
Topic Started: Thu Dec 28, 2006 12:00 pm (2,054 Views)
Conrad
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Therapy Needed
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So far I've got every single bolt I can find that may hold the sump on, off including the two big ones that hold the transmission to it. But it still won't budge!
Do I need to hit it harder, or am I missing something?

1989 2.5-16v.
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dave_irl
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If every bolt is off then she's probably just being stubborn..

I know sounds silly but is oil filler cap off? and sump empty of oil? Could be some kind of vacuum suction effect holding her on

We had the sump off an E30 325 the other day, just needed a little tap with the old rubber hammer to break the seal, and the gentlest of prises with a flat screwdriver..

Take out the dipstick too in case it interferes with something :)
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Conrad
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I'll give them a go - thanks Dave.
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Cosmo2.5-16
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Have a good look around the trans end of the sump for hidden bolts,
If it doesn't drop down with a few slaps of a rubber mallet or with a screwdriver between the block and sump, Don't Force it chances are theres something there that you have missed.
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Conrad
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Well the trans end wiggles slightly now, not much though. Front end won't budge a mm.
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Racing
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Conrad.
These sumps can be a real biatch to get off if the one that has had it off-for whatever the reason-used gasket glue on the sump gasket.
I´ve beein into situations where i´ve had to hit the sump so har i thought it´d crack-but ALWAYS with a plastic mallet tho.

However...make absolutely sure that all the bolts are taken out.
A quick check is to see if the minority of the ones down are;
Three approx 25mm long M6s from up front.
3 or 4 approx 30mm M6s from out back,and then 4 EXTREMELY long m6s from the absolute back.
There´s two that are in plain sight,then another couple further in-towards the center back end of the sump,and these are in sort of recesses.
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Conrad
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Check, check and check. I have a rubber mallet, so I'll give it a few more thwacks tomorrow.
Thanks mate, hopefully I can get the bastarding thing off tomorrow early so I can have a root around as you suggested previously!
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merc190uk
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The Godfather

can i just add my bit

leave the screw driver for screws and not wedging between gasket mating surfaces !!!!

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big al merc
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merc190uk
Dec 28 2006, 11:11 PM
can i just add my bit

leave the screw driver for screws and not wedging between gasket mating surfaces !!!!

i agree right tool for the right job ;)
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Conrad
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Right! It's detached, but it won't come out! I've disassembled pretty much the entire front end now - even the alternator came off to move the bracket out the way! Oil lines off etc. But it still won't come forward.
Grrrr.
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Conrad
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Aha! How do I remove the dipstick tube? It's stopping the sump coming forward.
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Racing
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Conrad.
That´s not it.
1/detach the two allen bolts keeping the enginemounts to the front crossmember.
2/Raise engine as high as it will go AND block between crossmember and engine mounts with spare sockets or similar.
3/Detach front roll bar.
Just losen it and dismantle totaly from car
4/Now...you can slide the pan forwards approx halfway,and as it starts to be able to tilt it..you slide it sideways towards the pass side while increasing tilt.

What stands in your way currently is the oil pickup tube,and altho it might be tempting to dismantle....don´t.
Point being that there´s not way in hell you´ll be able to unbolt the upper of the two M6 bolts at the pump with sump in place on car.
What´s more is that there´s a bracket at the base of the main caps that need to be unbolted as well..asf asf...
Do it as per above and you´ll be home free.

The dipstick tube...aint even in the equation.
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Racing
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Btw.
Just put the alt bracket and oil lines back in place.
Again...they´re not even in the equation.
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Conrad
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Mate, I'm coming to Sweden to shake you by the hand personally!
If the weather clears up I'll have a crack tomorrow. :)
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Racing
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:lol:
Tell you what.
I´ll be leaving for some friends in the south of britain eventualy.
You...buy me a pint at the local pub :D
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Conrad
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Deal!
On the bright side, I stuck my hand in the sump and felt around... and guess what I found? Shards of plastic from the timing chain rail. At least I know what the blockage is now.
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Cosmo2.5-16
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Conrad Posted on Jan 1 2007, 12:56 PM
Quote:
 
I stuck my hand in the sump and felt around... and guess what I found? Shards of plastic from the timing chain rail. At least I know what the blockage is now.


Pitty

To replace the chain guides the timing cover will have to be removed new ones fitted and new chain.
Are you going to do this yourself ?

The problem with you getting the sump out is that you aren't lifting the engine high enough at the front i would guess. When you are trying to get the sump past the cross member you will have to wiggle it around a bit. It is a tight squeeze.
To get the best lift on the engine, lift the engine at the front lifting eye at the top of the engine and only this one. Have you access to an engine crane or an overhead winch.

I would recondmend that when the sump is off check both the Big end Bearings and Main Bearings.

:) :)
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Conrad
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No I won't be able to do it myself I imagine... my expertise isn't that good!
And yes, I'm going to borrow a friend's engine hoist sometime this week and lift the engine on the eye. I just can't get it up enough using a jack.
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Racing
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News?
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Conrad
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Nothing. I need to borrow a hoist, which should be coming this weekend. Last weekend due to various circumstances I couldn't do anything to it. :(
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Conrad
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Right this is really, seriously pissing me off now. I have a hoist. I lift the front, but it catches at the rear. I lift on both eyes, and the same thing. I've completely cleaned out the sump now, and got a few bits of plastic and a small piece of metal that looks like it's been shaved - it's coiled over on itself.
But I cannot for the life of me get the sump off! I've disconnected the exhaust, so it's at the maximum it'll go without disconnecting the gearbox, and it will not go higher.
Help!
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Conrad
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YES! I win! I got it off. Everything looks fine though - can't find any damaged parts or blockages. Is there any way to get the pick up line apart so I can poke something down it to check in there?
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Racing
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Conrad.
It works like this.
From the pickup tube to the pump per se.
From there directly to the oilfilter housing(and if temps are up through the cooler)
Then the oil reaches the rearmost main web first...and from there on out next and next aso.

Within the pickup "bell" there´s a mesh.
This mesh should be absolutely free of obstruction.Ie..spotless apart from oil.

Of course there´s a remote remote chance that your pump driven gear could have cracked,but even doing so..i see no reason as to the pump stop delivering pressure of any kind-as the pump gear is completely harnessed and cant really go anywhere.
Never seen a cracked pump gear on these motors tho,and i´ve taken a few apart by now.

Check pickup tube for cracks as well.Just wipe it down and go at it with a flashlight.
Longitudal cracks can be hard to spot,and the laws of physics will render the engine to pickup air instead of oil if a crack,and if above oil level in the sump under working conditions.

When putting back together....
Scavange a second "drive hub" for the pump from some local supplier.
Dismantle fan belt and crank pulley as well as vibration dampner.
To get the dampner off you MUST have an appropriate puller.The ones fo ANY american V8 out there will work,and work well.
Take care of the little prong that fixates the dampner to the crank.
Pull out the "shim" from the front crank seal...and the next thing up is the "drive hub".

With you SPARE drive hub...have a piece of tubing welded to it,and at the top of the tube weld a good sized washer with a hole in it.
In this hole you insert an appropriate bolt of some sorts.

Now..you can install your modified drive hub and turn the crank over by hand to build pressure with a common ratchet.Works great.

I´ve on occasion had engines that refuse to "prime" due to that the pickup tube has been to close to the sump bottom.
Reference distance is approx 1/4"(6mm+),and all the way up to 10mm will work.
Lower than 6mm tho...might create sort of a vaccum that the pump can´t overcome.
Then that there approach described above has been of great help.
It´s cheap and it works.
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Racing
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Btw.
Crank centerbolt is torqued down to approx 30kpm.
This is a LOT...
So..use the bolt holes for the pulley and install a couple of approx 50mm long M8s in there and hold the crank in place by inserting a long prybar or similar and turn the crank over until the prybar hits something that´ll hold the crank.
Center bolt is a 27mm socket btw.
It is EXTREMELY important that you torq the SOB down in teh same manner as the oilpump is ONLY driven by this torq between the part at the front of the crank.
30kpm...is one massive amount of torq,but do NOT cheap out on this-or you´ll lose your motor like it or not.


About that center bolt in the modified drive hub for the pump.
Have that welded to the washer as well.
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Conrad
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Right, had a look in - the mesh is spotless.
To be honest mate I need to get back on the road asap. I'll reassemble and see how it goes - I may have cleared the blockage. If it's not then I'll have to rethink it, and try your way, but I want to avoid that if possible. :)
I have a welder and have been trained, so welding bolts on etc isn't a problem. :D
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Racing
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Do yourself a favour.
Check said clearance between absolute bottom of pickup bell and bottom of pan.
A simple ruler does it.
If less than 1/4"..just give the pickup a whack with a rubber mallet.
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Conrad
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Thanks bud, I'll give that a look. :)
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Conrad
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When I put the new gasket on, does it need a layer of oil like a rocker cover?
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Cosmo2.5-16
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Are you talking about the sump gasket.
What material is it made from ( is made out of cork or rubber )

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Conrad
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Gasket material!
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Cosmo2.5-16
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No you don't use oil on new gaskets,


The reason I ask is that some gaskets are made from different materials, I take it you bought a MB gasket, So it's probably made from a gasket paper( a bit of a greeny colour )
On the likes of rubber gaskets And yes a rocker cover gasket, we tend to use a bit of vasoline. Not grease.
No need to use any gasket compound, just make sure the block surface is clean and the sump surface is clean.

When fitting the sump back up, get it over the cross member first and then put your gasket on, get a bolt put through one of the holes of the sump and gasket, now start to line the sump back up with the block, get your bolt started on a few treads, once on a few threads go to the opposite corner of the sump and start an other bolt making sure the gasket is still in place. Get all the bolts in, and ran up by hand before tightening them.
When tightening, tighten a few at front then a few at the back and so on, Don't start at one point and keep going on from this point.
Key is to tighten evenly.
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Racing
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I agree.
Also take care not to overtighten.Easy does it as the merc sump is a quality machined unit.

As for gaskets.
It is considered good practice that WHEN u get to use the stuff,ALWAYS glue to gasket to the part that comes "off" of the engine.
Ie;If gasket at the waterpump,you glue the gasket to the pump and not the block.

But,as stated....for a quality reffed motor...you use the stuff sparingly..and in the right places.
If there´s one thing that makes me as a pro engine builder go ballistic it´s when i pull a motor down and find silicone..
It should almost be foggin outlawed to put that stuff even close to an engine.

One of the few places i use the stuff is for end sealing of the intake valley on V8s.
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Conrad
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Thanks for the advice guys, that's exactly what I needed!
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Conrad
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Disco! Sump on, ARB on. Missing a few bolts I've dropped though, so I'll get new ones during the week. Just need to refit the alternator, tensioner (I snapped the last one) and finish bolting on the inlet manifold.
Should have it all done by next weekend, weather forbidding.
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cossie connoisseur
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there can be only one ;-)
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So what did you actually do to fix the problem? :)

Hope its all better now B)
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Neil
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as far as i can tell:

Quote:
 
On the bright side, I stuck my hand in the sump and felt around... and guess what I found? Shards of plastic from the timing chain rail. At least I know what the blockage is now.


Conrad, any other discoveries?
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cossie connoisseur
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there can be only one ;-)
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Im more curious into the parts he needed or not needed to replace. Do you have any pic's Conrad as they would be really interesting :)
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Conrad
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Not technically fixed, no. I removed all the bits of plastic, as I said, but that's it. I couldn't find anything else wrong!
I'll finish reassembly, then give it a whirl. If it's still borked I'll take it somewhere to have it checked out - it's taken me long enough to get this far, and with the weather getting progressively worse, my back is getting worse.
To be honest I didn't really get any pics of the underneath! I got more of when I took apart the injection system, including some rather interesting ones of petrol ice sculptures!
All I needed to replace was gaskets and bolts I either lost or stripped during removal. Oh, and I replaced my engine mounts today - they were completely shot!
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cossie connoisseur
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there can be only one ;-)
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Did you notice the fact that the wireing loom goes between 2 injectors on the inlet manifold instead of going around the outside of it so complete removal takes longer than it should!

Could you change the engine mounts with conventional tools? would you have to lift the engine much to change them?

If you know how to take out the injection system now then i would think getting the injectors cleanned would be an advantage though first things first i guess.

Hope you have cracked it and it will be ok now :(
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Conrad
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That wiring loom is such a sod! I spent ages trying to fiddle around it.

Engine mounts are just a hex head bolt underneath, through the beam and a 17mm headed bolt through the top. The hex heads aren't too bad, just make sure you don't strip them! I had to hammer a 15mm socket over the top of one because it rounded off. The 17mms though, are a pain. They're very, very tight. I had to get in a large plank to lever the spanner round. I had my engine hoisted via the front eye when I did them, and a fair amount of room is needed. When I did them on my 2.0 I jacked it on the sump and that seemed fine, so don't worry about it.
Remember to allow extra room though! I put the old side by side with the new ones, and they've flattened a good half inch.

There's a place down the road from my work that clean injectors, so I may just take them down one lunchtime and have them done.
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