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put car in storage, now it wont work!; don't you just hate it when that happens
Topic Started: Sun Mar 11, 2007 7:47 pm (1,759 Views)
Uk Merc Man
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190e Leg-End
[ *  *  * ]
put my 16v into storage in nov last year, was in pefect working order!

left it pretty much untouched, till mid feb

had a couple of half assed attempts to start it, batter flat, tried repeated jumping.....still no joy...just not cranking hard enough....even tried putting 2 old bateries in series to get 24v....it cranked quicker, but still not great...

took battery home, charged it fully, brought it back, car starts after several minutes cranking....sounds ropey - spluttering, etc.....few revs it settles down to 1000 rpm idle....then it stalls. then it takes me ages to re start, i take it for spin round the block, it feels like its missing/spluttering, flooring it helps a bit but it pauses massivly under load then manages to pick up and race off.....its a pain, so i go back to the garage, let it idle some more, not too bad, then it stalls and wont start again.....it goes back in the garage.

that was 2 weeks ago, went down there today with a fresh battery.....put battery on, cranked it over, not great, after a while, it splutters and starts and sounds real bad! harsh knocking from, i think, the top of the engine. i only let it run for 2 secs, not even enough to start properly!

i took off oil cap, and i can still feel the chain on the sprocket so i dont think its too bad....when i crank to start, i can hear it knocking then, in sync with the engine, sounds like once per revolution...

so, ideas? i thought i'd put it in storage, pull it out in the spring, great shape! no chance, it ran 100% before it went in there and its only been 3 months!!

have checked, ovp fuses, got spark (not great but there) put fresh petrol in it, checked oil - low but above minimum...

like i say, it ran and idled perfect a couple of weeks ago, now some werid kocking.... AND, just after i sell my spare engine! :rolleyes:

help?!
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Matt
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It could just need a damn good blast Steve. To clear it out from being sat up for a while.
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cossie connoisseur
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there can be only one ;-)
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
for my 2 peance worth in furure Steve start the car up regularly whilst it is in storage. The components are used to daily use almost then dont get used at all for months, car need a thourgh going through and damn good service which your more than capable off anyway :)

Other thing is that the top end would have been empty of oil when you started her a couple of weeks ago for that first time so if you reved her hard and did not take it easy you could have done some bad things in there, i doubt it but there is that possibility though :(
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Racing
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Seems you can trace it to your voltage probs.
If you jump start these cars the OVP can very well go into orbit.
Iīd try to borrow an OVP and test the car all over with a fresh battery to see what happens.
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julian
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You mentioned you connected 2 batteries putting 24 volts through, not good, My old 2.0 ran exactly as you described when I blew a lambda sensor whilst jump starting and causing a short. After when I Put my foot on throttle the engine would die, have to pump throttle to get revs. coughing and spluttering, bugger to start hot or cold. The exact symptoms I had. The Lambda sensor senses the cars emmisions, and sends messages to the ECU if the ECU doesn't get messaged it doesnt know what to do, so causing mayhem.

That's one possibility

Good idea to disconnect battery if storing and not able to access and start regularily.
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cossie connoisseur
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there can be only one ;-)
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OVP will be cause of most of the problems but that knocing sound does worry me slightly, would the OVP make the engine run in a way that will make it knock?
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julian
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cossie connoisseur
Mar 11 2007, 08:06 PM
OVP will be cause of most of the problems but that knocing sound does worry me slightly, would the OVP make the engine run in a way that will make it knock?

He said he checked the fuse I think, if the fuse had blown the ovp should have been protected and be ok. The fuse went on mine , replaced it today, but the time it was blown it only affected the engine slightly, and caused ABS warning light to stay on, not the symptoms to the extent that merc man describes.

Can't think what the knocking is though, but bhen 190's dont start and you have to crank them over, they never sound good lol.

I'm only yabbering from my experiences though, I'm sure no expert :lol:
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Uk Merc Man
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190e Leg-End
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i checked the ovp fuses, they are fine
the car doesn't have an o2 sensor so thats one less thing!
i guess i'll freshen it up with some service items....i have cap/arm/plugs/filters + oil then pop the valve cover off and have a look...... :unsure:

i'm freaking out.....i have a schedule to stick to!
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chrismatheou
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If you hear a knocking sound it may be the case that the crank shaft bearings have gone, due to debris and crap gathering at the bottom of the engine while being stored.

Once you started the engine and ragged it a bit by the looks of it you could have caused some serious damage as when the bearings get knackered which can literally only take a few minutes in these scenarios, you can develop low oil pressure which can lead to a snapped piston rod which in turn can be causing the knocking sound.

I am unfortunately talking from my own personal experience.
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thinksoutloud
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Part of things
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I left my Corrado sit for a few months when I was out of the country. It ran much as you describe (without the knocking, admittedly), which I always attributed to residual goo in the injectors from the old petrol. Ran very iffy for a couple of weeks then was fine.

.j
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Benzsc1
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I had a similar experience with my 2.3-16 I reversed it into the workshop and left it there for three months cause the tax and test had run out and other work was needed although there was allways a bit of top end clatter from the old engine which did sound more front end ie: timing chain it ran fine.
Went back to it try'd to jump it ..... it just turned and turned and turned with the occasional spluter checked every thing fuel was fine spark was good until I checked the compression two of the cylinders were down massively and i took a massive amount of amps to turn the engine over even then she was sluggish :(
In the end another engine was purchased and once the old one was out it looked like something was seriously astray in the bottom end :( :(
still not sure what the old lump is in the corner of my workshop wiating for the day I open her up :wacko:

Still your symtoms sound similar to mine mate ;)
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merc190uk
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The Godfather

Hydraulic lifter not filling up with oil ?
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deekerh

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My concern is the fact that the batteries were connected in series ie 12V + 12V=24V, which is too high a voltage, I think the batteries should have connected in parallel which would give you 12Volts at double the power output of a normal 12volter. I think the problem could be electric after getting this higher voltage connected across the ignition circuit.
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Racing
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Guys.
Please explain something to me as far as the british RHD cars.
Rest of the world 16V got O2 sensors from something like mid 86.
Even clearly says so in the manuals.

Thing here is....
You can delete the catalyst per se...no prob.
However.
To my knowledge the ECE engines(ones without catalyst)were scarse here on the continent as well as up here in scandinavia.
My old ladys 88 for instance(last 2,3-16) carries a catalyst and an O2 both.

..and altho i can see the reason for catalyst delete...i can not for the O2.?
Were the british RHD cars O2 delete,and if so...why?


Merc 190.
The 16V sports mech lifter.

UK merc.
I have had several 16V at the shop where the OVP fuse has been absolutely fine...but the relay per se has gone AWOL.
From the sounds of it...it sure as hell sounds like its OVP related,and seing the abuse..(from an electrical standpoint)it sure canīt hurt to take it apart and give it a visual at least.Looking for compromised welds et al.

Yes,serious malfunction of the OVP can very well lead the engine to knock.
Especially so a top end knock,as the AFR asf will be WAY off.
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stwat
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Had the very same problem with my mates 911 when we got ot out of storage last week. Totally flat battery, so we put the booster on it but it still wouldn't start no mater what. He'd had it running a few days before but the problem is that he starts it every week or so but doesn't drive it, so the battery never gets any proper charge put back into it!! And that had killed off a couple of the cells(sp?)

When we put a new battery on and finally got it started it was running well rough. Took it for a drive and for the first 3 miles it was running on only 4 cylinders. (it sounded just like a scooby :lol: ) but as soon as a suitable piece of country road was found he floored it and suddenly it started firing on all 6. It was a rather pleasant kick in the back actually :D :P That Porker is seriously feckin fast :ph43r: I got to have a little go my self too :ph43r:


So it might just need a good run. If the tapping is from the top then it will just be a hydraulic tappet sticking and will free off with the same good run.


Stu
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Waynec1980
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Part of things
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Steve

Same problem with mine a while back obviously. It was the OVP!!! Get it chnaged matey.

ALso had similar symptoms a few months later and it was the ICU (igntion control unit) on the near side wing.

Good luck mate..


Wayne
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Uk Merc Man
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190e Leg-End
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well its a 16v engine, i didnt think the tappets where hydraulic?

when the engine ran a couple of weeks ago, and when i was driving, the oil pressure was pinned at 3 bar

even when its cranking for ages, it lifts the pressure up a bit....

i'll grab a new battery and a new OVP, see how that helps.....

cheers all
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cossie connoisseur
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there can be only one ;-)
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Yeah they are not hydraulic.

Just hope it cures that sound from the engine :(
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190neil
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Steve,

You have the worst luck with 16 valves and garages. You'd be better off parking your cars on the bloody street.
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Uk Merc Man
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190e Leg-End
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190neil
Mar 12 2007, 09:35 AM
Steve,

You have the worst luck with 16 valves and garages. You'd be better off parking your cars on the bloody street.

yeah i know, it sucks!

was so pleased when i was lucky enough to have the 16v as a 2nd car...no bad weather, no salt on roads, no parking dints, nice, clean dry garage for the winter months...and look what its done!!! may as well have kept driving the bloody thing!!!

:)
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pentoman
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julian
Mar 11 2007, 08:23 PM
cossie connoisseur
Mar 11 2007, 08:06 PM
OVP will be cause of most of the problems but that knocing sound does worry me slightly, would the OVP make the engine run in a way that will make it knock?

He said he checked the fuse I think, if the fuse had blown the ovp should have been protected and be ok. The fuse went on mine , replaced it today, but the time it was blown it only affected the engine slightly, and caused ABS warning light to stay on, not the symptoms to the extent that merc man describes.

Can't think what the knocking is though, but bhen 190's dont start and you have to crank them over, they never sound good lol.

I'm only yabbering from my experiences though, I'm sure no expert :lol:

Your starting/running symptoms are somewhat indicative of an OVP failure, especially as you've jump started the car.

Normally jump starting should only blow a fuse, but as we all know the actual OVP relays fail all the time on these things...

OVP failure does not always take out the ABS. There seem to be 2 circuits, one for the ABS and one for the ASD and Engine electronics. That's the problem I had - ASD failed and dodgy starting/running. Ironically Steve, I bought an OVP off you and it fixed it :ph43r:... sorry. My starting/running issues weren't nearly as bad as yours sound though.

Is your ASD light on? Not the triangle but the one down by the other lights? If not I would guess the OVP is fine.


As for the noise, these engines do of course sound like a bag of spanners. Every time I start mine up I think something has failed in the engine! Perhaps since the car started playing up you've been you've suddenly got a bit paranoid about noises and things that were always there? Perhaps you can record a video and post it??

racing
 

Guys.
Please explain something to me as far as the british RHD cars.
Rest of the world 16V got O2 sensors from something like mid 86.
Even clearly says so in the manuals.

Thing here is....
You can delete the catalyst per se...no prob.
However.
To my knowledge the ECE engines(ones without catalyst)were scarse here on the continent as well as up here in scandinavia.
My old ladys 88 for instance(last 2,3-16) carries a catalyst and an O2 both.

..and altho i can see the reason for catalyst delete...i can not for the O2.?
Were the british RHD cars O2 delete,and if so...why?


My car is 1990 or 1991, no catalyst, and definitely has no O2 sensor. The strange thing is, the wires for the O2 sensor are there in the drivers side footwell (under the carpet) but do not connect to anything. I know they are the 02 sensor wires because I posted photos of them on mercedesshop.com and was told that's what they were. A bit strange isn't it?

I do not know why UK cars were "O2 delete". I always assumed it was the other way round, and the 16v was primarily designed to run without O2 sensors, and the O2 sensors were forced upon them by emissions laws etc? So I thought the UK cars are 'normal' and the rest of the world is abnormal?

From late 1991 the UK had to have catalysts. So the last 2.5-16s would have been Catalyst and O2 presumably.
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Uk Merc Man
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190e Leg-End
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pentoman
Mar 12 2007, 11:03 AM
Normally jump starting should only blow a fuse, but as we all know the actual OVP relays fail all the time on these things...

Is your ASD light on? Not the triangle but the one down by the other lights? If not I would guess the OVP is fine.


As for the noise, these engines do of course sound like a bag of spanners. Every time I start mine up I think something has failed in the engine! Perhaps since the car started playing up you've been you've suddenly got a bit paranoid about noises and things that were always there? Perhaps you can record a video and post it??

the fuses are fine on the OVP, might replace it if i have to, for the sake of Ģ50....

from memory, no lights on the dash...

its definatly a noise to be worried about that wasnt there before!!!

will keep you posted...
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Cossie 2.5
Part of things
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Uk Merc Man,Mar 12 2007
11:48 AM

the fuses are fine on the OVP, might replace it if i have to, for the sake of Ģ50....

will keep you posted... [/QUOTE]
Erm if you can get for Ģ50 would you mind ordering 2 and passing me one!? dazzle.gif

ps. the diff is doing you proud :)
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Racing
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OT,i know....

Pento.
This sure as hell beats me.
Reason?
Well..systems back in the day had "narrow band" O2s.
Meaning that for full throttle power(WFO)..the O2 is not in the loop anyway.
So..why did merc delete them for the UK cars?(If memory serves me most systems back in teh day went "closed loop" to something like 30% TPS)

What iīm gettin at is that an O2 WILL save gas..simple as that..as itīs a dynamic sensor.
Sans it..all the ECUīs got to go on is the preprogramed values-which might very well be up to snuff as the car is new...but WILL change down the line.

So..in essence..i still donīt get it.
Puzzled by it even.
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erik-16v
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Quote:
 
My car is 1990 or 1991, no catalyst, and definitely has no O2 sensor. The strange thing is, the wires for the O2 sensor are there in the drivers side footwell (under the carpet) but do not connect to anything. I know they are the 02 sensor wires because I posted photos of them on mercedesshop.com and was told that's what they were. A bit strange isn't it?

I do not know why UK cars were "O2 delete". I always assumed it was the other way round, and the 16v was primarily designed to run without O2 sensors, and the O2 sensors were forced upon them by emissions laws etc? So I thought the UK cars are 'normal' and the rest of the world is abnormal?

From late 1991 the UK had to have catalysts. So the last 2.5-16s would have been Catalyst and O2 presumably.


These must be the "RUF" version.
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hal9000
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Silly question, but:

Did you store your car with gas in the tank? Worse yet with only a partial tank and not filled to the brim?

You live in a damp climate too, right?

Fuel which has oxidized and/or absorbed water can cause all kinds of problems including poor idle/stalling, hard starts, misfiring, smoking, strange smelling exhaust, etc.

Before doing anything else, I'd be inclined to drain your tank completely, refill it, pull the coil wire and then crank the engine for a total of about 45 seconds (in 10-15 second intervals to avoid burning up the starter or associated wires) to try to clear out as much of the old gas in the lines/injectors as possible. Then reattach the coil wire and try to start it as usual.

Maybe you'll get lucky and that will fix the problem.

edit: also, if you stored the car with a partial tank of gas, try to find a way to inspect the tank to see that it hasn't rusted. Surface rust will break loos and clog your filter quicker than you'd believe.
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Neil
Newbie
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I must admit i know fook-all about engines but if i was gonna store
a car for more than about 2 months i'd assume the fluids needed draining
and some other prep required too (filters/plugs etc).
You were brave to get straight in and try driving it, i really hope there's no lasting damage.
Dying to see your next project...
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cossie connoisseur
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there can be only one ;-)
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tbh you do not need to mess around with fluids whatsoever if you start the car regularly and chage fluids annualy.
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Big Ben
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Use a trickle charger to keep the battery in good order, A solar version could be used if you have no power point.

C-Tek
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pentoman
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Racing
Mar 12 2007, 08:25 PM
OT,i know....

Pento.
This sure as hell beats me.
Reason?
Well..systems back in the day had "narrow band" O2s.
Meaning that for full throttle power(WFO)..the O2 is not in the loop anyway.
So..why did merc delete them for the UK cars?(If memory serves me most systems back in teh day went "closed loop" to something like 30% TPS)

What iīm gettin at is that an O2 WILL save gas..simple as that..as itīs a dynamic sensor.
Sans it..all the ECUīs got to go on is the preprogramed values-which might very well be up to snuff as the car is new...but WILL change down the line.

So..in essence..i still donīt get it.
Puzzled by it even.

It is strange. In the UK it is common to adjust the idle mixture using a gas analyzer and the 'tower' adjustment thing.

Anyway bit of a thread hijack, sorry Steve hope it turns out to be nothing major which I'm sure it will...
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