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Turbo Questions Guys-in Here
Topic Started: Sun Aug 26, 2007 8:43 pm (29,805 Views)
twogood
???
[ *  * ]
Well clearly your KE system was not set up properly...worn out parts etc.
Its very easy to piss on the KE system and call it a piece of shite...
Thats because there is no one, let me repeat no one in this country left who can actually set it up properly.
What you probably had was fuel wash.
The ECU sending the wrong signal to the EHA etc, etc...
Thats why is sensible to go down the lambda/O2 sensor route so the ECU is always monitoring the CO2 and adjusting accordingly.
KE is fine.
I dont see the problem.
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Matt
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But whats that got to do with turbo charging? The KE cannot handle big BHP gains. Hence efi converting. And as long as you know the workings of the KE system and how to read the measurements, its not rocket science to work on.
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stwat
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Right, a non Mercedes related turbo question for you turbo gurus.

My Porsche 951 gets quite jerky just before the turbo spools up. Once the turbo is on boost its fine. It has had chips fitted but i have no idea which chips. But from what i gather they seem to give more boost than normal and chuck more fuel in so as not to burn a valve or piston out etc.

The car is stupidly fast, its just the jerkiness just before the turbo kicks in that is a pain.

I fitted a boost enhancer that brings the turbo on boost quicker and it works fantastically bringing it on boost at around 2700rpm instead of the normal 3500rpm but it seems to make the jerkiness worse :-/

Any ideas? Fecked leaky wastegate? Fueling issues?

Stu
Edited by stwat, Tue Aug 26, 2008 2:14 am.
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Matt
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stwat
Tue Aug 26, 2008 2:13 am
Right, a non Mercedes related turbo question for you turbo gurus.

My Porsche 951 gets quite jerky just before the turbo spools up. Once the turbo is on boost its fine. It has had chips fitted but i have no idea which chips. But from what i gather they seem to give more boost than normal and chuck more fuel in so as not to burn a valve or piston out etc.

The car is stupidly fast, its just the jerkiness just before the turbo kicks in that is a pain.

I fitted a boost enhancer that brings the turbo on boost quicker and it works fantastically bringing it on boost at around 2700rpm instead of the normal 3500rpm but it seems to make the jerkiness worse :-/

Any ideas? Fecked leaky wastegate? Fueling issues?

Stu
Ignition/fueling issue.
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Conrad
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Therapy Needed
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Just coming back to twogood - you say there's no one in the country who can set up KE? Have you spoken to Clive Atthowe; I'll bet he can do it, and do it well.
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Lewis 190E 2.5 16
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W201
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
My mate can set up a ke jet, not hard at all...
But its an old system not worth keeping, BMW M3's of the same Era were running EFI
Def worth doing...
Edited by Lewis 190E 2.5 16, Sun Aug 31, 2008 6:53 pm.
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cossie connoisseur
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there can be only one ;-)
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
a 100% working KE is fine, however EFI beats it hands down.

i wish MB had EFI from the start on the 16v as the amount of problems with the engine would be minimised.

There are a few people in the country good at KE, simple system tbh
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Matt
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cossie connoisseur
Sun Aug 31, 2008 6:58 pm
a 100% working KE is fine, however EFI beats it hands down.

i wish MB had EFI from the start on the 16v as the amount of problems with the engine would be minimised.

Agree completely Nick.
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Mohammad
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weneakhborz
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
by the way where is racing.i remember he had some Problems with another member but it was nice having him among us.we could use his knowledge
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Lewis 190E 2.5 16
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W201
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
weneakhborz
Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:49 pm
by the way where is racing.i remember he had some Problems with another member but it was nice having him among us.we could use his knowledge
He did start posting again but logs on every now and then...
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Enthusiast
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Part of things
[ *  * ]
BTW
There's a good article on KE in this months Practical Performance Car - September 2009, made sense to me anyway.
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Racing
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Member
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Oh,i´m right here.
Just been knee deep in work.
To be blunt about it we´ve had growing aches out the fabled,and are doin our best to catch up.
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Mohammad
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weneakhborz
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
good to have you back here among us
Edited by Mohammad, Sat Sep 6, 2008 11:59 am.
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Racing
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Thanx.
Sincerly,thanx.
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Matt
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Agreed, good to have you back jesper :)
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Ukmerctechie
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Dir is Kool. WKKP Forever!
[ *  *  *  * ]
Good to hear from you again Jesper.
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zoomer46
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More than part of things
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NICE TO HEAR FROM YOU MATE! and glad you are so busy too.
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kjnayak
Newbie
[ * ]
to all the Turbo gurus


I have a 190D 2.2 how do i go about adding a turbo to a non turbo diesel engine is it worth it.... or would i blow my engine in the midlle of the HWYl Please tell your experinces and what are the pros and cons
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Matt
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kjnayak
Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:21 pm
to all the Turbo gurus


I have a 190D 2.2 how do i go about adding a turbo to a non turbo diesel engine is it worth it.... or would i blow my engine in the midlle of the HWYl Please tell your experinces and what are the pros and cons
2.2?
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Johan.C
Part of things
[ *  * ]
Just let me say like this:
190d TURBO!

Its like this, M601.911 (190d) is a very reliable engine. and it DIDENT die after the w201 series...
It was enlarge to 2,3liters by changin the crank to the US model that hade 2,2l becuse of some rule.

In the Vito 110d the 190d engine showed up agin but WHIT turbo! Engine is calld OM601.970

Specs as followd:
Engine: 4cyl turbo diesel WHITOUT intercooler.
Displacement: 2299ccm
Power: 98hk / 72kw vid 3800rpm
Max torq rpm: 230Nm / 1700-2400rpm
Komp: 22.0:1

SO, whit a intercooler from a Ford Connect and a litle adjustment to the pump, ≈110hp is
not a dream....!

Intake manifold
Exhaust
Turbo

And cahanging the turbo to a bigger sybbling from a 300dt, yeah you get my point!
Edited by Johan.C, Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:47 pm.
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Lewis 190E 2.5 16
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W201
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Agree
The 606 lump is another great motor, very powerful when a turbo is bolted to it, twin cam head has great flow rates.
As said tho, its pretty easy to gain power from a 190d, there have been many conversions in the past that put power figures up to decent levels...
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kjnayak
Newbie
[ * ]
Matt
Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:35 pm
kjnayak
Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:21 pm
to all the Turbo gurus


I have a 190D 2.2 how do i go about adding a turbo to a non turbo diesel engine is it worth it.... or would i blow my engine in the midlle of the HWYl Please tell your experinces and what are the pros and cons
2.2?
2.2 ltr non turbo Diesel. there are 2 kinds in north america one is a 4 cyl 2.2 ltr Diesel and the other is a 2.5 ltr turbo Diesel
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matth190
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190 squirt
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Do I need a lot of work to install a turbo on my 2.0 Diesel?

I know sometimes I need to change the engine internals, but what are these exactly engine internals??
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Neil
Newbie
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
matth190
Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:30 pm
Do I need a lot of work to install a turbo on my 2.0 Diesel?
Perhaps.
The reason that 190D Turbos never appeared in RHD markets was because there wasn't enough room above the steering box for Mercedes
to install their unit.
That isn't to say that there aren't any aftermarket or custom solutions, just that they may be hard to find.

I think the engine internals are probably fine for quite a big power increase, particularly the Diesel engines - Turbos and Manifolds are more the issue.
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bri957
More than part of things
[ *  *  * ]
Allard produced a turbo kit for the 190d, may be worth speaking to them and seeing if they have any documentation left from the 80's that would help you.

Bri
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matth190
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190 squirt
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
NEIL
Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:25 pm
matth190
Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:30 pm
Do I need a lot of work to install a turbo on my 2.0 Diesel?
Perhaps.
The reason that 190D Turbos never appeared in RHD markets was because there wasn't enough room above the steering box for Mercedes
to install their unit.
That isn't to say that there aren't any aftermarket or custom solutions, just that they may be hard to find.

I think the engine internals are probably fine for quite a big power increase, particularly the Diesel engines - Turbos and Manifolds are more the issue.
Can you please show me which one is the steering box? :$

And about Manifolds, they can be customised tho?
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dennisbots
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Part of things
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Is there somebody in here that knows a lot of stuff about injectors and setups?
I have searched the net but i came up with nothing good.

It is for a 2.5 16v compressor setup with a custom intake etc.
Right now i have 630cc siemens/deka high impedance injectors with a 4 hole spray pattern.
They are to small.
Now the idea is to put an extra set in the back of the intake plenum, so that they spray into the intake runner and they can cool the air and of course ad fuel.
BUT is it better to fit a pencil type spray pattern as second injector or a cone spray pattern like the siemens/deka i already have.

Biggest concern i have now is that i get fuel drops onto the intake wall.

Also an idea is to put my siemens/deka injectors as secondary and put dual spray injectors a main injectors, so that they main dual one's spray direct onto the valve head.
Only problem is i can't find dual spray pattern injectors.

The idea is to fire them sequential.
There are so much options, but there is no information.
I emailed with some injector company's but they give short and stupid answers.

Hope a tuning or injector guru can help me out here.

Greetings Dennis


Edited by dennisbots, Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:59 pm.
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angrybassboy
Part of things
[ *  * ]
How can EFI be a waste of money? More power and more economy, plus using a system like megasquirt you can have various maps!
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angrybassboy
Part of things
[ *  * ]
dennisbots
Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:54 pm
Is there somebody in here that knows a lot of stuff about injectors and setups?
I have searched the net but i came up with nothing good.

It is for a 2.5 16v compressor setup with a custom intake etc.
Right now i have 630cc siemens/deka high impedance injectors with a 4 hole spray pattern.
They are to small.
Now the idea is to put an extra set in the back of the intake plenum, so that they spray into the intake runner and they can cool the air and of course ad fuel.
BUT is it better to fit a pencil type spray pattern as second injector or a cone spray pattern like the siemens/deka i already have.

Biggest concern i have now is that i get fuel drops onto the intake wall.

Also an idea is to put my siemens/deka injectors as secondary and put dual spray injectors a main injectors, so that they main dual one's spray direct onto the valve head.
Only problem is i can't find dual spray pattern injectors.

The idea is to fire them sequential.
There are so much options, but there is no information.
I emailed with some injector company's but they give short and stupid answers.

Hope a tuning or injector guru can help me out here.

Greetings Dennis


Contact wayne scofhield at chipwizards in oldham. there website is half done but there is a phone number. Im sure he will be able to help
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85matt190
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WINNING!
[ *  * ]
I am considering putting a garrett t03b turbo from my grandma's old volvo on my 2.3 8v. the turbo is in good shape, but I want to know what other people's opinion of this would be. It is also a goal of mine to find a 16v head, and I wanted to know if it would be better to wait for the head before the turbo, or would it matter? I believe the garrett was putting out 1.3bar of boost on the volvo.
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Neil
Newbie
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
85matt190
Wed Apr 15, 2009 4:19 am
I am considering putting a garrett t03b turbo from my grandma's old volvo on my 2.3 8v. the turbo is in good shape, but I want to know what other people's opinion of this would be. It is also a goal of mine to find a 16v head, and I wanted to know if it would be better to wait for the head before the turbo, or would it matter? I believe the garrett was putting out 1.3bar of boost on the volvo.
Welcome fella.
Visit 190Revolution.net to see how many times people have asked whether the 16v head will mate up to the 2.3-8 block.
If it did, it would be the most popular W201 modification in the US.

Good luck with the Turbo though ;)
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85matt190
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WINNING!
[ *  * ]
thanks alot. i was afraid the heads wouldnt mate with my block. another question i had was about intercoolers. the volvo didnt have one, and i cant seem to find a reasonably priced one that will fit in my car. will i need to do a custom cooler? or could someone recommend on that will fit well and not be way oversized. Most coolers i find are 2" - 3" thick and I was thinking a 2'x1'x1" would work perfectly but the only ones i can find around that size for less that $900 are cheap chinese p.o.s.
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Conrad
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Therapy Needed
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Jesper, you around?
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13B
Part of things
[ *  * ]
My 190E turbo (Garrett GT25) was going great guns yesterday at Sandown race track in Melbourne, Australia, in fact getting my best lap time at that circuit, 1:42.29

Then on the 8th lap started losing power and wouldn't rev past 5000rpm. Coolant temp was about 100C on the dash gauge but the oil temp was (???) bloody hot (no oil temp gauge installed).

Once I got back to the pits it idled really slow and lumpy, and with bugger-all oil pressure, less than 1bar. I let it cool down for 1/2hr and turned the idle speed up a tad, back to 1050rpm, and the engine smoothed out and oil pressure returned to normal.

Subsequent attempts at boosting meant revving the **insert swear word here** out of the engine to get any boost, and even then the turbo didn't sound exactly happy.

What do you reckons happened? Wrecked the turbo bearing....? I thought they'd be more resilient than that..

I.
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alogaparaloga
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crazy mind
[ *  *  * ]
You need a temperature gauge mate.
Most likely turbo bearings will fail if oil is too hot and cannot get adequate pressure in the bearing housing.
To check your bearings take the intake pipe off the compressor housing, and check radial and axial play of the shaft.
If you feel any play, then it's a time for rebuild, and balancing of the rotating assembly.

A common problem on GT series turbos from Garrett is the failure of the cartridge that holds the roller balls in place.
It is plastic of some grade that is not too strong and it melts after a hot shutdown.
TurboTechnics offers a metal cartridge to overcome that problem but the price is a bit high.

I would say go to a conventional turbo with floating bearings as it is more reliable by design.
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13B
Part of things
[ *  * ]
What are some good turbo setps / combinations known to live successfully with the 2.0 8v engine?

Been reading up on the GT series this morning - it would seem they are very sensitive to too much oil pressure (needing a restrictor in the oil feed to limit the pressure into the turbo to 30PSI) and needs a good drain-back from the turbo with no restriction... my engine produces heaps of blow-by gas .. so much so you'd think the turbo is boosting into the crank-case as well as the intake manifold... which may restrict oil returning to the sump..

I like simplicity and if changing from a GT to a T series oil-only turbo will help then I'll do it. If the kit on my car is as old as I think it is then it quite possibly came with a T series turbo originally.

Anyone make a oil drain plug which doubles as an oil temp sensor for a 190E? I already have the Oil temp gauge sitting on my 450SE track car - its oil never goes over 100C so don't feel guilty removing it.

I.
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Racing
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Member
[ *  * ]
13B.
With all due respect,for a race car blowby is a BAD thing.

Check that out first,and if issues are found like broken ring lands and what have you not this needs to be analyzed and remedied first.
A leakdown test and general check over tells a lot.

As for turbos indeed there are MINOR advantages to using a ballbearinged centre cartridge,but TBH i for one at least am not an advocate of them seing their massive drawbacks.

The commonly journal bearinged turbos of today are NOT the same creatures as the ones for instance back in the late 80s,and the mere fact that you´re talking of the GT series tells that there´s room for improvement in design.

Even the 8V is a rather well flowing motor,and as such can make good use of a slightly larger turbo with basicaly intact driveability from a racing car POW.
I´d look into the 28 series size or thereabouts.
Schwitzer(these days borg warner) make some cutting edge ones currently,and these are VERY well built units that as of this writing is all you could ever ask for.
Development strives forward as far as compressor and turbine design basicaly on a daily basis,and in your case a Schwitzer 200 series would to the trick i believe.

Correct.
Turbos frown on to much oil.
Schwitzer for instance recomends a max pressure of approx 2 bars at FULL LOAD.
Ie;you don´t really need to do anything than fab a simple restrictor,and then just take it from there.
Diminshing the amount of oil running through the turbo vs what runs through the engine helps in every imaginable way and is one of those tricks that should simply be performed.
Down to that it´ll even influence spool time...

One sets a pure race engine up a little different than a high end street one,and then especialy so when it comes to camshafts and static compression but i guess you´re aware of that.
Flow numbers for the 2.3 head at least are in the 230-240CFM territory even stock @ 28" of water.
Ie;go "large" on turbo sizing on both sides of the huffer as the engine flows well enough to feed a rather large turbo to begin with.
If you err on the small side all that´ll happen is a SLIGHTLY earlier spool,but on the other hand BSFC will drop like a stone as the smaller huffers turbine side will become a restriction at a rather early point rendering you to run into other issues-which might very well induce engine failure of all sorts down the line.Need for much retarded timing,more fuel to cool asf asf asf.

A to small a turbo and temps will go up,you´ll get reversion,backpressure and god knows what else.
To sum it all up,small turbo=bad.

We´re it me for an engine of 2 liters displacement dependant on class rules(i´m assuming restrictions here) i´d use a huffer with a compressor AND turbine diameter of shy of the 50mm mark.
Ie;that´s enough to reliably make that engine produce 300bhp++ all day long at rather low amounts of boost.
Take a long,good,hard look at all the ancilleries.
Espeicaly so the wastegate and wastegate placement.
DO NOT EVER run an internal wastegate on a racecar!!!

If electronics are allowed,use dual boostvalves,and let the one that controls maximum boost open ONLY as that boost is achieved.

Likewise with intercooler and intercooler ducts.
Think long and hard how to maximize intercooler area to your benefit,and use aluminium ducting to direct flow towards it.
Same goes for letting air OUT of the engine bay,which again will affects intercooler efficiency as well as temp stability.

You also need some sorts of setup to monitor p1/p2 pressures over the engine.
Ie;exhaust pressure vs intake pressure.
This to get an idea of internal reversion asf,and when picking a turbo make sure that the vendor is willing to assist you on for instance an exchange program for various turbine A/R sizes as this will help greatly in making the engine react as well as make power.

...and...log log log log log.
Use onboard logging until you puke.Read,interpret and adjust.
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Antidote
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Excellent post, thanks Racing.
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rmark
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Part of things
[ *  * ]
Glad to see you back "Racing",

Im resonably new to this forum and was slowly but surely reading through this thread,

i have a 2.0 m102 engine in the car, but have a turbo in the garage with the following info on it,

Garrett T2 ( JW3 M3 36 )

cast in the compressor - ( .48 h24)



is this of any use to me if i used it on my engine.

im guessing it is TINY.. and useless?


also, any updated pics or progress on the beast??

regards, Robin
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alogaparaloga
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crazy mind
[ *  *  * ]
Robin,
T2 turbo is tiny for a 2.0 liter engine The best you can do, is to find a T25 or T3 or a KO3 from borg worner (KKK) from the VAG group.
Trim for both compressor and turbine are important.

This is a list for OEM applications from http://www.not2fast.com/turbo/maps/

VAG 1.8t 150 HP K03-053 or -058
VAG 1.8t 180 HP K03-026 or -035 or -042 (aka Sport)
VAG 1.8t 225 HP K04-023
Edited by alogaparaloga, Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:51 am.
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