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Turbo Questions Guys-in Here
Topic Started: Sun Aug 26, 2007 8:43 pm (29,812 Views)
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Nope.
It´s for a stock 1300hp diesel.
Will suffice to around the 3000 mark on petrol tho. :lol:
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Conrad
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STOCK 1300hp?! What the hell needs that kinda power? A tank or something?
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Nope.
A small boat.
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Boys have been hard at work.

Posted Image

In place on the pass side of the valver.
Gives you an idea of the physical size of the thing.
This is a BIG ass huffer for a mere 2.3 liters worth!!

Posted Image
OEM turbine housing for the schwitzer is watercooled and about the size of a rugby field...so a replacement was in order.
Jonas came up with the solution,which is a housing for a KKK K29.After a trip to the lathe,and anal control of turbine clearance(0.4mm) is all started to fit with MUCH better control of dimensions.

Posted Image

With the inevitable placement of this big a turbo...stuff needs to be relocated.
So..if left OEM the passenger side engine mount would have turned....hot,for the lack of better words.
A new one was fabbed from 5mm Domex steel,leaving ample room even for the 4" downpipe.

Posted Image

Compressor outlets of these units are made for V-band seals.
So..we turned a weldbung with o-ring recess in the lathe.
Point being that the ones available from the semi boys are all cast and always the complete pipe-which wont fit anyways.
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Conrad
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Jesus christ that things a monster! It looks like a dinosaur snail ressurected and attached itself to your engine!
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Big Ben
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Sep 9 2007, 03:30 AM
Jesus christ that things a monster! It looks like a dinosaur snail ressurected and attached itself to your engine!

Thats an Ammonite dear boy!! :lol: :lol:
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Let´s put it this way.
There´s 30mm of clearance for the pass side frame rail :P
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On a different note.
The film clip Maki made of the rustbucket at one time and uploaded on youtube...
Talk about the power of the internet..
40 000 downloads and counting..

Merc going fast

Turbos and mercs seems to be odd enough for people to take an interest?
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Conrad
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Big Ben
Sep 9 2007, 06:03 AM
Conrad
Sep 9 2007, 03:30 AM
Jesus christ that things a monster! It looks like a dinosaur snail ressurected and attached itself to your engine!

Thats an Ammonite dear boy!! :lol: :lol:

Thank you! To be fair it was 2.30am when I posted that and I had just got in from the pub. :lol:

Jesper - I think you're right about the odd side. As we are now aware these engines are fantastic, but why haven't more people taken note? Everywhere you look you find videos of mental Audi UR Quattros and Coupés, but try find one of a 190E putting down serious power and yours is the only one filling the niche market!
Now make some more videos. B)

:D
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Point indeed taken,which IMO brings us back a number of posts in a way.

Conrad.
To my knowledge there´s nowhere in the world where the average enthusiast run as fast with low buck setups as in this country.(we regulary see 10 sec Volvos at 4000pounds worth)
If you take a look at the other side of the puddle,the yanks in general are running much smaller turbos for a given power.

Which angle is right....you be the judege of that,but to me it comes down to understanding how the entire engine concept is put together.
Again..what we´re to do here is to a part an experiment,and i guess close future will tell if we´re right.

Combustion engines are to a large degree also about inducing turbulence into the gas mass when it hits the combustion chamber,and this is where turbocharging sets the parameters on end.
Point is that with the turbocharger we´ve already introduced the kinetic energy needed for good turbulence,and as a result the piston/cylinder induced turbulence needed can be reduced-and we´ll STILL get the power.

Likewise when it comes to revs vs boost amount.

The "generic" way in the US is to up the boost with a given turbo for greater HP output.
Prob is that by doing this we also induce larger amounts of heat into the ingoing airstream,which in turn needs to be pulled out again to make the motor produce.
"Our" way of thinking on the other hand is to stuff the motor full flow wise as best as we can with a bigger turbo and keep the amounts of boost down for ease on the involved components.
Engine included.
However,as noted,this puts very large demands on the engine from a flow point of view.

I can appreciate that a generic V8 has a hard time keeping alive on high revs(altho when built they indeed do-just look at the winston cup engines),but the point here is that over here we have a different engine culture,and one that emphasize engines that revs,are fairly small in displacement and STICKS TOGETHER.

As the idea of keeping the FLOW rates up for boost ENGINES- is practicaly at its dawn i for one expect that we´ll be seing an increased interest in engines that were/are developed to flow.

If we take a look at for instance the Audi engines these can indeed be had to deliver,but at what cost?
No matter how you look at it energy is NEVER for free,and it is by using the thinking cap we can make advancements.Not by brute force.

In plain english it becomes LOGICAL that an engine that will flow and rev freely enough to develop around the 400 mark out of 2.5 liters will take more kindly to the boost than one that will stonewall around the 250 mark.
Main reasons being flow and turbulence.

What´s more is that to suffice flow wise for that 400 mark power number in NA form,it is just logical that the acutal practical flow of such a head is greater still-whereby the boundries are set for what´ll happen on the boost.
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Posted Image

Slow sunday,and i wasn´t at the shop for long...boys were at it tho.

To relieve the exhaust flange of the turbos weight it is advicable to have some sort of bracket to do so.
This bracket was fabbed up to be bolted to the OEM bolt holes for the lower alternator one on the engine block and carries the weight of the turbo with ease.

This way the exhaust flange will basicaly be responsible to hold the weight of the downpipe,and that´s it.

As can be seen we opted to weld in the oilpressure fitting for the turbo in the bracket-a´la early Posche,mainly for service reasons as this will make dismantling of the unit easier.Further it will help keep critical vibrations down on the oilpressure hardline.
Fitting is as usual AN4(so we can keep using the blue anodized bling parts :lol: )
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As i´m slowly gettin better the pace at the shop is picking up :)

With that said.

As this will be a more or less high output motor we´re taking ease of service into consideration.
Altho i´m not a fan of "bling" AN parts can´t really be considered such.
This is the real deal.No el-cheapo rip-off,but true aeroquip stuff.

As the new intake will be very short it would interfere with the OEM oilfilterhousing.
Now,the OEM oilfilterhousing-in contrast to much of the aftermarket crap-contains some desirable features like a thermostat worth its name asf.
Therefore,i opted to mod the stock unit.
This was done by taking it apart completely and ripping the OEM steel liners out of it.
Then i turned a replacement out of aluminium that was interferance fit,turned a lid for it-again aluminium-and welded the whole thing back together with AN12 weldbungs.

Posted Image

Going to keep the AN stuff as a nomer on this motor,and as such i also modded the valve cover to take the bungs needed.
Now,the valvecover is out of magnesium and therefore not really an option to weld.
So what i did was to turn some inserts in the lathe that was interferance fit and pressed the whole thing together with pure old fashioned force and a BFH.
As there´s no real pressures involved..it´ll work.
As you can see i opted to drill the "little" one out too,and installed an AN10 in that position.
Idea is to run the AN10 the lenght of the cover and have both the AN10 and the AN12 exit in the same position for the breather box further down the road.

Posted Image

For the cooler lines i opted to get rid of the OEM very soft couplings and install AN12 there as well.
Point again being...i expect this motor to be pulled a time or two as things progress,and ease of service and maintenance is something we build into the project at this point.
Simply turned a set of flares for the OEM tubing for the cooler and reused the OEM steel lines and TIG welded it all back together.
Important is to be aware that the shutter angle of the AN stuff is 37deg.

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Exhaust hedder then.
This is the raw material as delivered.
Expensive to say the least,as it is Inconel reinfored acid resistant stainless steel.
Posted Image

Material is BONE tough,and that means that cutting as well as forming it...yeah well...thank god i got a lathe standing around :D

This is the equally stainless exhaust flange for the head.
Watercut.

Posted Image

..and then the weldbungs for the hedder in place.

Posted Image

I formed these by turning a mandrel in the lathe out of aluminium so the end that it supposed to meet the pipe per se didn´t get disformed.
Then used some BRUTE force in a vise...
Turned out pretty good...but boys...don´t try this at home with regular hand tools with this material.You´re BOUND to get hurt.For real!

Posted Image

To go with the ideas of good total system flow we built in an antireversion step for the hedder to aid the exhaust pulses as they´ll be scavenging.
Point being that this intentional step will hinder the return pulse from reaching the exhaust valve undisturbed.
As the roof of the port is the most active part of it,this is where the mismatch is set to be the biggest.
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Lewis 190E 2.5 16
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Very interesting posts jasper, keep em coming

Just a few questions:

1) how quick can a 16v spin a turbo up of that size? i know that the 16v's can spin a "normal" sized turbo up instant without any lag but that is an beast of a turbo, so just wanting to know how quick it can spin it up.

2) Are you going to change the car in any way to handle the power, what can be done to the rear end on these? i know the basics but thats alot of power.

3) How much power can the getrag handle i know these can take alot of heat and power, but dam thats a hell lot of horsepower you'll be running also what will you do to the box or will it be left stock?

BTW that header looks great

and keep us updated

Thanks Lewis
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1/Spool will be a function of degree of tune as well as system flow.
As i plan to use cams of approx 290deg duration,seat,i´m not really shooting for this combo to become civilized anyways.
In essence,i expect this setup to make it happen just shy of 5 grand and i expect to shift @ 11000 rpms-or thereabouts.
This´ll leave me with a working range of approx 6000rpms-which has to be considered ample to say the least.

2/Yes.
Imperative such are;
Aluminium roll cage bolted to the "A" and "B" pillars of the car.
Altho the w201 is a fairly sturdy chassis,as you note we´re talking some serious overpowering of the basic concept here,and any "help" the chassis ca get at those levels will indeed improve safety as well as overall chassis performance.
Chassis twist by the way,which is fairly simple to measure,is measured on force/degree of twist.
That aside the rear subframe will be taken down,cleaned out and rewelded with the TIG as well...and that list continues.
Will probably keep using the H&R cupkit tho-seing this is a streetcar after all,and i´m so far pretty happy with the performance of it.
What needs to be done to get traction is another matter,but one thing at a time.
That aside we´re going to "fill her up" with the tricks we´ve learned down the road.
Delrin bushings asf.
Brakes...the 4 pot Brembos i acutally got for the old car with 310mm discs.

3/Getrag in USED form will obviously take approx 500hp on slicks.
Shockloads is what mainly kills transmissions.
Dunno if you´re aware of it,but i´m currently also modifying a Getrag 275 for higher output.
If it´ll take to the massive amounts of power we´re tlaking here?
No idea,but we´ll at least increase the load rate of the stock unit considerably-i can tell you that much.
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Tidbit of info.
For hedder nuts...when the get displaced one way or another or you F them up by some reason....
Walk into your local Volvo parts store and order the same item for any 240/740 turbo.
These are interferance type nuts and will be as strong as anything else as well as that they´re dirt cheap.
The ones in the pic are regular M8s that we simply use for ease of bolting/unbolting when playing around with it.
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Lewis 190E 2.5 16
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11,000 rpm thats very nice.

Thanks for the above^^

Lewis
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Conrad
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Thanks for the info and pics!
Just a quickie while I'm thinking about it - why water cut? Is there a reason for water over laser or plasma?
I work for a metalwork company you see, so I can call in favours and get bits like that made cheap, and we have a plasma cutter in house so I can use that free... But water cutting we hardly ever use so no useful contacts for me. Not that I'll be here much longer mind, but I might see if I can get some group buys on useful small bits for members on here.
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Lewis.
Yes.
Step away from common thinking when it comes to camshaft profiles and boost.
In the old days one said you could add a thousand rpms for every bar of boost you put ontop for a given cam.
It´s not a matter of cam,but of flow-and tht´s what a cam alter.
The OEM 2.5 cams and some serious flow will make you shift around 9 instead of 7....


Conrad.
Watercut just for being anal,it being around and to keep warpage to an absolute minimum.
A flange like that could be cut with a torch for all i care.
We DO however use water as an abolute must when cutting copper headgaskets for instance.
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V-band clamps...raw aluminium...and some serious DIMENSIONS of parts involved...racing gentlemen..racing hussh.gif

Posted Image

..and the hedder is getting there,but JESUS this inconel reinforced crap is hard to work with!!
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Lewis 190E 2.5 16
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Now that i like^^^ have you got room for that in a 190 engine bay?

Cant wait to see it finished.
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Lewis.
We use a tape measure and build this to the best of our ability to have room in the 201 chassis.
Of course we might end up with a mm or so off,but then again...for a project this size we can always MAKE it fit. :lol: (BFH aso)

What i´m saying is that the chassis...is the least of our issues at the moment.Engine´s got to get the room it simply needs.
It´s way more important to have the primarys of the correct length than having a dent in an inner fender.

So far tho it seems we´re on track,cause according to what we indeed have measured it´ll fit.
Have in mind that all the accessories on the pass side fender will be taken out and placed elsewhere.

Overflow tank for the radiator will be placed by the battery,and the windshiedlwasher tank will be replaced by a "bag" on the opposing side.
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jimjimthehumanbin
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:o

Be careful where you drive that beast. You're going to be sucking up dogs, cats, small children with that turbo.
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Lewis 190E 2.5 16
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Sep 17 2007, 07:44 PM
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That is crazy, love it
that turbo is BIG just cant get my head round the size of that thing.

Looking good
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Thanx guys.

Coming up is finish of the hedder eventually.
First up tho is completing the collector and seamwelding the unit.
Thought i´d "electropolish" it...comes back really really clean-which is of no concern to me.
What IS however is the first time you put load on the engine,and the hedder will take on that beutiful blue/brown finish only a stainless manifold will...pure motor pornography...
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Lewis.
The primarys are BIG for a turbo gun alright.As is the turbo seing the engine IS of 2.3 liters.
As in REALLY big,but then on the other hand we´re expecting some serious revolutions here...
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dave_irl
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That is without doubt the sickest meanest exhaust manifold ever! B)

Look at the size of the pipe coming off the turbo!

Please tell me that will be the size of the pipe going all the way back to where it tries to melt the back bumper! :lol:

or even scarier just pokes its way out through the side of the car somewhere :ph43r:

Wanna make me a 4 branch for a RHD 8v?? :help:
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Thanx Dave.
Nah...gonna reduce the 4" DP for 3.5" approx 1 meter back.
Idea is to let her rip the full 4" as is...turndown of 30deg...another 30 to straighten her out for the floorpan...and then have a sheetmetal shop turn me a fairly long cone to reduce for 3.5"-which will be the size of it all the way back.
1 muffler..Apple racing,right at the end.
(Already got a number of them standing around the shop that was really meant for the brute power chevy bigblock for the camaro.)

Haven´t really had time to fool with the setup today,but going to get knee deep in it tomorrow again..Seamweld/backpurge time...
What i did tho was to weld up the leading pipe for the GAY coloured 60mm wastegate of mine..pics coming up.
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It's pink, isn't it.
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Even worse

Posted Image

60mm worth of GAY performance(is there such a word even :lol: )

Luckily enough...anodization can be reversed...and when done...it´ll most likely be black or aluminium coloured instead.

GAAAAWD i HATE bling crap!!!
Further...listen to this....it´s a chinaman rippoff of the 60mm HKS unit.
Cool enough.
Comes with V-band clamps n all...
Now...to tighten such a clamp u use a bolt and nut.
The IDIOTS delivers them with a nyloc nut.
Yeah...that´ll work well...at an expected 950deg celsius..foggin morons..
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dave_irl
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Sep 19 2007, 09:57 PM
Nah...gonna reduce the 4" DP for 3.5" approx 1 meter back.
Idea is to let her rip the full 4" as is...turndown of 30deg...another 30 to straighten her out for the floorpan...and then have a sheetmetal shop turn me a fairly long cone to reduce for 3.5"-which will be the size of it all the way back.
1 muffler..Apple racing,right at the end.



Sounds mighty trick. Cant wait to see it.
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kentronix
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I am gonna have those pics printed and laminated !!!

When I get turned into a cyborg I want you doing my pipework.
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Cat_Bow
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When you fist start it, please film it and put it on youtube, not so much for sound and stuff, I just wanna see someones face when it roars ^^ , hope it doesn't go out with a bang, either way it'll make a nice video.
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wait when i first saw the turbo i thought it was going on a plane or something..

its goin on a 16v ???

...

....

:o


ill post back after i get my head around this
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Nah.
Don´t fret.
Bangs will be rear tires at the most :lol:
I´ve been around this long enough to guarantee results.Main Q really just is how much...and i for one dislike the current internet era BS of who´s got the longest dick...and can show a piece of paper stating X amount of more horses then the next guy.
So...i´ll be cool about how much power this plant´ll put down..i can simply say...a lot...as in a HELL of a lot..IRL.

Anyways.
Spent some time today seamwelding the stainless crap with backpurge.Something mandatory not to have the stainless oxidize inside the pipe,and...i´m friggin spent by it.It´s MUCH more work than the average guy would think and to ad insult to injury stainless warps like a SOB...mandating a jig..
Cool enough tho,and having this done means that the "fun" parts of the hedder build remains.
Ie;figuring out placement of the wastegate and installing bungs for exhaust backpressure and exhaust heat.

Posted Image

What to see here is the attack angles of the primarys into the turbine.Could say i´m proud of the outcome,cause by turbo standards...this is as good as it gets..haven´t measured,but a fair guestemate would be under 10deg...and that´s SHALLOW by turbo standards...all in line with the general idea of keeping total system flow under wraps.
What´s more is that we also got the attack angle into the turbine on the money...IOW HOW the gas is expelled into the turbine housing-which also is important.
All in all...i´m extremely happy with the outcome..

Posted Image

As we expect this SOB to make the numbers on as LOW a boost as we can get away with wastegate flow becomes part of the flow equation.
Ergo..we needed a WG of ample valve dimensions.
However...we do NOT need dinosaur size pipes leading to and from it as engine bay space in the 201 chassis is cramped to say the least.Idea is for this to be kept under the hood lines after all.
So..we came up with the idea of putting the WG on the same size primary...and just install a cone leading to the more flow challenged WG itself.
This way we´ll get the benefits of the bigger WG area..and have a much easier task leading the pipes for it.

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Conrad
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Sep 20 2007, 09:44 PM
Spent some time today seamwelding the stainless crap with backpurge.Something mandatory not to have the stainless oxidize inside the pipe,and...i´m friggin spent by it.It´s MUCH more work than the average guy would think and to ad insult to injury stainless warps like a SOB...mandating a jig..

Aarrrgghhh tell me about it. The company I work for specialises in stainless steel, so when I was learning to weld I was put through all that. My God, the most frustrating thing I've ever had to do was weld 304 1.25"x2mm tube handrail without distortion!
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OH do i ever hear ya!

On the other hand...the song of the pipes when you hit them... :lol:
By now you can play them like a friggin piano!!

304 is a rather low grade stainless tho..
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Posted Image

Hardline for the oil to the huffer.
To be able to adjust oilpressure for it,as this will affect spool,we came up with this solution.
As you can see installed at the back of the cylinder head..meaning it won´t be all that "visual",but still a viable tuning tool hopefully.
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