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| Turbo Questions Guys-in Here | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sun Aug 26, 2007 8:43 pm (29,811 Views) | |
| Lewis 190E 2.5 16 | Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:30 pm Post #121 |
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W201
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What headgaskets do you use, are they stock? I know that the OEM HG wont last long(so im told) |
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| Racing | Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:41 pm Post #122 |
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Going to run the OEM Goetze gasket for starters. To my knowledge thereīs been few around that run the numbers i have for a couple of years on a daily basis,and let me tell you that if you keep the 16V out of detonation...i for sure canīt see the problem. IF NEED BE...iīm all set to have one watercut out of copper. We looked into o-ringing the block when we went over the block prep,but seing the "siamese" between adjacent cylinders thatīs a no go in my book... |
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| Racing | Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:14 pm Post #123 |
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BWAAAAAAAHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!! GAWD i really HATE bling...ads nothing performance wise. Dayum washers weīre even reffed for weight. 0.4 grams a piece.. :lol: Anyways. OEM waterpump is out as the huffer is as big as it is. Ergo,i turned some bungs in the lathe,added a 90deg bend and hit it all with the TIG..however..design wise..it came to look "so so"... So,iīm giving some thought to cutting it all up to reroute the pipe the other side of the turbo cold side.For better estetics only. As you can see i turned myself one of them ULTRA fast SLS delete plugs while at it...interferance fit by 15/100mm..and i guess weīll toss that in the anodizer bath while at it when the time comes. Oilpressure outlet for the huffer.Steel and aluminium as that wonīt gall over time. ..and my mantra with turbo anything...crankcase vents.Vents out the fabled even... So,in unison with the ones in the valve cover..this one it something it put together for the OEM fuelpump boss of the block.Again AN12. |
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| Racing | Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:19 pm Post #124 |
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Could say that the waterpump setup came to look about a ton better after some aditional work. Didnīt take any pic of it,but the tubing leading from that outlet there to the heater in the car was fabricated out of aluminium as well. Complete with bracket to be bolted to the rearmost bung in the cylinder head. Came out fairly nice.. With that said. Idea is for a so called cobraneck at the turboinlet to redirec the incoming air 90deg. Said n done...200mm worth of aluminium bar stock went into the lathe. (An action photo or two is always nice :lol: ) After a little while...had to break for the day...we were about half ways. Idea here is to fab an airhorn of full radii for the turbo inlet. Then iīll fab a "hat" that fits over it. The airhorn fits outside of the compressor inlet of 140mm,and when installed iīm going to weld it in place. Then..with the "hat" in place iīll reroute the airbox to a 150mm weldbung that will be at 90deg towards the inlet of the turbo. Thing is that the 201 chassis doesnīt have the longest engine bay in existance,and this way iīll lead the incoming air via a reinforced hose to the filter itself that i hope to be able to place in the right hand fender-in front of the wheel,in a fabbed box. |
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| dave_irl | Thu Sep 27, 2007 8:53 am Post #125 |
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Defector
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Nice work...as usual :lol: Are you going to stay with the original mechanical waterpump? Not that parasitic drag is even a consideration with such a monster spooler, but do you think it would provide enough cooling? I was looking at one of those digitally controlled electric pumps, and a blanking plate to replace the whole water pump. Just one "bung" for the hose to bring the water straight at the block, if you can picture such a design.. Then again I am a little paranoid for overheating
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| Conrad | Thu Sep 27, 2007 8:58 am Post #126 |
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Therapy Needed
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Teehee, teeheehee your with all those gay colours floating about in your engine bay people are going to start talking... :lol: Looking awesome though.
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| Uk Merc Man | Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:12 pm Post #127 |
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190e Leg-End
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here's a question: as you'll all know, i just finished installing a mossleman set up on my car. its meant to run at approx 6-7psi i have an AFR gauge and i set the boost to 7psi then tuned the AFR to 18-20 on idle 15-17 on light loads/normal driving and 10-12 on full boost i then turned the boost up to 9-10psi and tuned it to the same as above based on the amount of adjustability i still have left on the mossleman ecu, i reckon i could go as high as 12psi and still have it running within the AFR scale above. so, assuming the AFR is ok, can i turn up the boost to, in theroy as much as i can, as long as the AFR is ok, or is there more to it than that? |
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| Conrad | Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:23 pm Post #128 |
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Therapy Needed
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18-20! You must chomp through fuel. I guess it's necessary or you'll lean out though. |
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| Racing | Thu Sep 27, 2007 8:24 pm Post #129 |
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Steve. Bring AFR up at idle. 13.2-13,5 does it. Apart from that youīre on the right track. Prob that MIGHT be an issue is ign timing tho,and therefore you should be anal in the approach of more boost. LISTEN TO THE ENGINE!!!!!!!!!!! Least sign of detonation...the 16V will survive that,and i can tell you from personal experience that first thing to go awol is the headgasket. Cheap enough and easy enough to swap,but we wary as you up the boost. Do "plug chops".Ie,go WFO and cut the engine out. Bring a couple of the spark plugs out and check the porcelain around the anode. If thereīs signs of very small balls-either white or black to the colour-back off the boost right there and then. The specs are known as "salt&pepper",and are in fact minor parts of your pistons. With that said. ...and...*drumroll*..the intake stack is done Full radii..lightened as much as poss,and with a 7mm wide prong at the rear to fasten the "hat" we intend to fit to redirect the airstream 90deg. Mere size puts things into perspective,and itīs almost a shame to hide the intake stack underneath a hat now that itīs done...but.. |
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| Racing | Thu Sep 27, 2007 8:31 pm Post #130 |
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Dave. Yeah,weīre going to keep the OEM waterpump. If anything most OEM pumps are geared to flow the water way to fast when you tune an engine,which will in effect make the water pass through the engine to fast,which in turn will hinder the water from picking the heat up in an orderly fashion. Ergo,what WE do is gear the whole thing down. We fabbed a crank pulley way back...that is approx 30% less in diameter and have run with it for the better part of a year by now and it simply....works. Itīs made out of aluminium alloy,and we chose to have it anodized black at the time. My guess is that when everythingīs said and done...more stuff is going to turn out that colour as i find it "mercedes". |
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| Uk Merc Man | Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:03 pm Post #131 |
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190e Leg-End
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the way it works now is 18-20 on the gauge gives 10-12 on boost that makes me think that 13.2-13.5 on idle would equate to low single figures on boost? i think the adjustment on the ecu i have effects it accross the whole rev/boost range ergo reducing afr at idle effects aft on boost - make sense? also, low numbers on the gauge = lean, and high numbers on the gauge = rich and lean is bad. correct? thanks for the pointers, i will check the plugs at the weekend.
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| Racing | Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:20 pm Post #132 |
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Not familiar with teh mosselman ECU,have only fooled with Lotec. Lotec at least have ad-on injector setups aīla cold start valves that indeed are controlled by a separate ECU. AFR wise youīre correct,but thereīs no way in hell a setup like that could have left mosselman? I mean..at 18:1 at idle the whole engine has to rumble around and have a really hard time staying alive? U sure your WB is calibrated and on the money? Jesper |
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| Racing | Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:50 am Post #133 |
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Steve. Given it some thought,and the AFRs at WOT seems...less than stable? Thing is,thereīs a major difference in performance between 10 and 12 in AFR. 12 is ok,altho STILL on the rich side. For a turbo car like yours iīd start out around 12 to advance optimum from the right end of the spectre,but normaly touch down somewhere around 12.4-12.6 with everythign said and done. Advancing the latter numbers with caution,and seing your current running and operating conditions thatīs a no can do. Ie;Trace down the problem,cause there sure as hell is one. Add to that the fact that you run stinking lean at idle,and that this after all IS a "factory" setup...it all comes down to that something isnīt working as it should. The mosselman ECU asf...it only affects fuel? How is fuel added?Over cold start valves? If youīre on a tight budget...iīd toss the OEM mosselman stuff in taht case,cause if the issue isnīt simple to remedy it simply isnīt cost effective to fool around with it and seing you live in england my bet is that you could dig up an old microdynamics PIC5 somewhere for nothing. Thatīll at least work,and it would let you keep the KE as is-Ie;stock. That in turn would mean that the PIC-or similar-would affect boosted fuel amount ONLY. Presume you tune over a wideband. That in turn would make it easy as pie to tune the AFR in per above at WOT. The PIC would also allow you to use 1 or 2 used common electronic injectors,which will render MUCH better resolution as far as add on fueling.(Ie;progression state) Truth of the matter is that most of the early 80s crap is just that...extremely crude at the point of being downright dumb. Now.Another turbo 16V guy over here,Gordon,ran the stock ign timing tables for a fairly long time b4 going stand alone,and if memorys erves me he was at something like 350hp b4 he abandoned the OEM stuff.(Read-started blowing headgasket asf) None the less,ign timing tables is very much a question of exhaust back pressure,and that is to a large extent a matter of exhaust hedder design,turbine housing size and layout,and downpipe diameter. Couple of guys around here have tried running the smaller size huffers on the 16V,and one thing theyīve experienced is that due to exhaust restrictions the amoung of allowable timing as boost is increased drop like a friggin stone. They seem to eb able to hand the engine timing along the lines of 11deg@1.5 bars of boost-which is nothing-before detonation sets in. Be aware tho that this is for VERY cramped exhaust sides. |
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| Racing | Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:59 am Post #134 |
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Another couple of pointers. The OEM intake isnīt designed to flow "wet",but the only real way of adding fuel will be to point the add on injectors upstream of turboflow somewhere b4 the plenum as theyīre thought to supply all 4 cylinders.(Ie;point the injectors towards the airstream-IOW AGAINST the flow) Not exactly optimum,but the only way to do it as long as you insist on using the OEM intake and an add on fueler IMO. Pointing the injectors "backwards" will aid the fuel in keeping emulsion for the rather long path to travel. Either that,or directly over the main KE-jet intake funnel. We used the PIC and similar setups back in the 80s on various turbocharged Porsche 911s we fooled around with,and altho it left something to be desired it at least worked. Whatīs more is that the behaviour of the engine stayed intact as we didnīt really touch the OEM K system. |
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| Uk Merc Man | Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:18 pm Post #135 |
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the mossleman ecu has goes in line to the main signal cables to the fuel distributor. it has a vacuum take off from the inlet manifold. it definately works as when you adjust the screw on it, the AFR moves! i am using an innovate LC-1 and wideband O2 - its brand new, it wired in as per instuctions and I have no reason to think its not working perfectly. i fiddled with the ecu today and it was hitting 8-9 on boost and it felt like it was pinking so i let off, anything around 11 to 12 AFR on full boost seems to perform well but this setting on idle gives me an AFR gauge reading of about 18 - is that bad? please confirm: on full boost what should my AFR gauge be reading? please confirm: ( ) the higher the number, the richer it is? please confirm: should I have the EZL knob on S or N? i will go stand alone, maybe later next year....i want to get it right as is for the moment as the car this entire turbo system came off ran very well. thanks for all you help
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| Racing | Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:12 pm Post #136 |
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Steve. To sort this deal with AFR vs Lambda out.... Now..Lambda 1 is the same as an AFR of approx 14.7:1. Ie;AFR 14.7 You recieve the AFR by MULTIPLYING the lambda value from the sensor by 14.7. This means that the NUMERICALY LOWER the AFR...the RICHER the engine runs(Ie. the more fuel is injected.) ..and the other way around. That ALSO means that the numericaly LOWER the actual Lambda...the richer the engine runs. Like i wrote above,when boost hits it is safe practice to start out with AFRs around the high 11 to 12 mark,and you tune from there. These values are PIG RICH for an NA engine..but the turbo engine makes good use of the surplus fuel as it tends to cool the combustion process down quite a large margin. When you tune...I at least normaly do so in car and in load-and then i shoot for a LAMBDA of approx 0.84-0,85 at WOT for the valver. This is by any standard STILL on the rich side,but i tend to do so from a "safe practice" point of view for ANY street engine.(Keeps you froms waping parts all the time) The knob should be in the "N" position as this will hinder ign timing by a bit,BUT YOU SHOULD NONE THE LESS USE THE ABSOLUTE PREMIUM FUEL YOU CAN GET YOUR HANDS ON! Thing is...fuel quality differs a little from country to country as well as season to season..so the ONLY real "interpreter" of what are the hard numbers HAS to be you. Otherwise...you need assitance of a pro tuner. Innovative stuff is absolutely a pro unit and it works well.(Iīve got three of them and 4 of the tech edge units at the shop and i toss them in and out of cars like thereīs no tomorrow) None the less ANY wideband can and should be calibrated,and this on a regular basis. Thing is...that most aftermarket tuned engines will run rich from the onset,and this will render slight variances in WB output...and you need to compensate for it. Ie;calibrate the SOB and be done with it already. AFRs through a WB CAN be trusted...IF the WB is calibrated. Make sure to make it good practice to ALWAYS calibrate the unit as youīre going to hardcore tuning of the engine. Jesper |
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| Racing | Fri Sep 28, 2007 11:13 pm Post #137 |
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Speaking of nothing. Would you mind shooting a picture of the mosselman specific ECU to give me an idea? My bet is that itīd be similar in operation to the PIC et al? |
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| Racing | Sun Sep 30, 2007 5:21 pm Post #138 |
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Been a little on the slow side the last couple of days. Did an EVO1( :lol: )bracket for a home signal for the ECU in case i decide to go distributorless. Didnīt really take it to heart tho... So..an EVOII came into existance. Much better both from a design and tech point of view. |
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| Enthusiast | Mon Oct 8, 2007 11:30 pm Post #139 |
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Part of things
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I've printed this thread out in .txt and digested it on the tube! If you want a copy PM me! I feel I'm learning something... Any progress (not to apply pressure!)? Roger |
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| Racing | Tue Oct 9, 2007 9:39 am Post #140 |
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Pressure?*ROTFLMFAO* Nah...iīm immune to that. No.Havenīt really had any time to fool around with the engine last week or so. After all...work is work...and that comes first. Apart from Kims car weīre currently working on another 3 valvers that are to be VEMSed,building up three motors-of which one is a turbo asf asf. ..and i STILL found time to implement the idle setup and reprogram cecilias car yesterday...so..*LOL* But..rest assured..weīll get there. Thinking along the lines that i need to go and pick the chassis up. Prob is that itīs approx 400km from here one way,and that means i have to take an entire day off-where the F to find that.. |
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| Racing | Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:56 am Post #141 |
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Steve.Any progress? At my end..have spent some time cleaning up around the shop..none the less weīve lookied into the parts that normaly doesnīt get any attention. For instance..we dug up a PS bracket to mod to install the alternator where the AC pump is OEM.Further,i wanted an alt that delivers more oumpf than the original one seing that i run high current MSD boxes and what have you not. Found a 140 AMP Bosch off a Volvo that fit like a glove.. Going to take some more pics and post. |
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| pentoman | Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:09 am Post #142 |
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Resident OVP Expert
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Here's something that I wonder: How come you can't just stick a turbo on, and rely on the air flow sensor ("toilet lid"!!) to inject extra fuel? Because when the turbo spins and forces more air in, this extra air should be metered by the flap, and thus more fuel is injected to match? Well, assuming you don't reach the limit of the movement of the flap. What about for a light pressure supercharger- could you rely on the toilet lid to meter the extra air for one? |
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| Racing | Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:31 pm Post #143 |
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Not really.No. What we did back in the 80s was to let the turbocharger draw through the K unit and use an ad-on fueler to make the engine run on at least reasonable AFRs under load. I know that Volvo at the time(ITC as it was called) invested BIG money in modding the K units to cope for their turbocars. Dunno if youīve ever seen one of those units,but the "coneshape" into the unit is altered dependant on engine character,load and behaviour. Hence,the "race" units all had bolted tops and thus the cone could be altered depandant on what was needed in terms of airflow. "Race" injectors used(altho all metering in a K unit is within the metering head)was the so called "gold" ones. However,anything "race" k-jet,seing it is Bosch, is priced at a level where you fall the floor laughing what they tell you they charge for the pts. That said. Weīve looked into the accessories. Turned out that a 140amp Volvo alternator is almost a direct fit against the AC bracket as can be seen. Further...daddyīs started doing something heīs not done for a loooooooong time for anyone then himself.. This is just the raw layout so far,but it at least gives you an idea. You can see that i emphasize a reversion step here as well. From here on out iīll basicaly increase the dimension,but keep the basic form of the port. Used to own my own flowbench for a number of yrs,but...seing it mostly collected dust at the end.. :lol: ,i simply sold it.Learned a lot when it comes to flow though. ..and for the sake of comparsion.. (for those not into the loop,this is the exhaust port of a cossie) |
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| Racing | Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:06 pm Post #144 |
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Put a little more work into the exhaust side today,and weīre closing up on the end result iīd say. |
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| Racing | Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:00 am Post #145 |
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Comparsion pics. Head has been ported aīla the old klasse1 principles,only with a "turbo bias"(read biased towards the exhaust side) A lot of work still remains tho. Like the combustion chambers,berylium copper valve seats aso. |
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| Conrad | Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:16 am Post #146 |
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Therapy Needed
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Looking good! |
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| Conrad | Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:05 pm Post #147 |
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Therapy Needed
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No updates?
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| Racing | Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:19 am Post #148 |
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Nah.Not for the time being Conrad. Last couple of weeks the surplus time has been used cleaning the shop up and iīve given the old rustbucket/warhorse some attention. Turned out that i blew the hose for the heater at the junction by the heater valve underneath the front shield. Well..that made me blow the headgasket skyhigh...as it of course happend with me going WFO. So..apart the old engine came. Turned out that the head had gotten a little warped..so we started taking the engine apart..(why do i NEVER learn..) Well..what was SUPPOSED to be a simple headgasket change...didnīt turn out that way. We swapped for some fresh pistons,rings and rods.. Overhauled the entire head. Tossed the old "temporary" wiring for the VEMS.. ..and while we were at it a new VEMS controller was installed with the latest software...and hooked the ALS/Launch control up.. Remodeled the intake a little with the TIG..asfasfasfasf.. Now..it "kinda" paid off. See..i got t started just the other day,and spent a little while mapping the new unit yesterday.. ..and now it simply runs harder than ever. Geeesus... Boys will always be boys i guess.. Plagued by a misfire tho,and going to investigate that as best as i can today. Make no mistake tho,cause the car runs harder than it ever has.Like a friggin bat outta hell even. Itīll smoke the rears out on the open freeway going 80 with no probs what so ever..and seing the misfire iīd say that more is to come. Whatīs more,the new VEMS unit carries a MAP sensor of higher values,meaning that i can now increase boost to 3 bars if need be(yup..you read that correctly..) |
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| Racing | Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:21 am Post #149 |
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Btw. Our 18yr old apprentice at the shop had never been around an ALS/launch switch. When i programed the unit and hit the button he almost crapped himself,and accordingly..he dubbed the button the "respect switch". :lol: :lol: |
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| Conrad | Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:22 am Post #150 |
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Therapy Needed
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3 BAR!!!!!! That's ridiculous... I love it!
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| Racing | Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:55 pm Post #151 |
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Welp. Time to up the boost,like thatīs needed seing the weather around here. Got the bits n pieces sorted out of the new install and indeed she runs better than ever. Thing that strikes me is how..."mundane" the car feels when she starts to put down the numbers. As power comes on out on the freeway..thereīs absolutely no prob what so ever having her under control as you toy her around with rear wheels spinnin wildly doing 80-100mph in the wet. Funny in a way,and a clear reciept for what mercedes built into the valver. Well..i run a H&R too to be honest about it,as well as some heay duty bushings here and there..none the less. |
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| dave_irl | Sun Oct 28, 2007 9:19 pm Post #152 |
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Defector
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Is this engine the one that was for sale a while back? Will you be selling it again after the new new one goes in? Either way, please take some new videos of this monster hi-speed flail tailing ps this launch control, can you explain that a little more please? I was checking out some Omex rev limiters with launch control, I was wondering how it would go with my carbs, seeing as the fuel will still be pumping out and just the sparks cutting out at whatever rpms.. grenade.gif |
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| Racing | Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:39 pm Post #153 |
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Yup. Same engine. Like stated,blew the headgasket and "took care of her" as i had the engine apart anyways. Launch control; You basicaly adapt a second "map" by the flick of a switch. This map carries a retarded ign timing and and overly rich fuel mixture making fuel burn in the exhaust hedder,which in turn makes the turbo spin much much harder rendering boost from a stand still. As you let the clutch out you release the switch,and then the engine already has a "platform" to work from boost wise. Dunno what to do with the car n engine as the new setup is done really. Been asked by members of the scandinavian board to take some more short vids. Will see what i can do. |
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| dave_irl | Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:07 pm Post #154 |
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Defector
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Ahhh similar to anti-lag! Some of the drift cars round here have it, didnt know it could be used for launchcontrol too.. Cool. It makes some insane noises too
Nice one |
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| Racing | Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:09 am Post #155 |
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Yeah.In essence just fancy names for raping the little engine
Buuuut...say what lasts..cause last night i gave it a shakedown..and smoke started coming out the back. Just that..it was transmission oil..*ROTFLMFAO* Yup.Seems we exceeded the limit for the gearbox casting one way or another.. She runs like a friggin bat outta hell tho,iīll have to give her that much... Fellow motorist in their "hig performance cars" looks kind of funny at me as i start smoking rubber going 80 or so next to them in a beat up,rusted out old 190 with a "D" badge out back.. :lol: |
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| Conrad | Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:09 am Post #156 |
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Therapy Needed
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Jesper - do you, or do you know of someone that does, make your own valves? A member of another forum I'm on needs some custom valves made for a project car that he's turboing, but doesn't know where to go. Thanks.
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| Racing | Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:36 pm Post #157 |
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Sure. Conrad,as with most everything else parts in general doesnīt know what label is on the box they come in. If heīs after performance iīd say that it is a fair bet to look at for instance what Ferrea can supply. Valves that are "universal" are normaly sold by head diameter and stem diameter. Then keeper grooves are cut in a regular lathe,however it is imperative to have the correct steel/tool when pulling that stunt. For the mercs for instance we need a radius steel of rather..odd dimensions,and that leaves us to order not only the cutting tool but the "holder" for it as well. All in all...not really economical if itīs just a few valves. But...sometimes itīs the only option youīve got. Further,be aware that valves can be had in a myriad of various materials and forms.Each with its own advantages/disadvantages,so many times it pays off to ask someone thatīs wary of whatīs the intended goal of the install. |
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| Mohammad | Wed Nov 7, 2007 3:50 pm Post #158 |
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weneakhborz
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hmmm.... some where in this topic i stopped reading as a monster appeared on my screen. WHAT IN THE GODS HOLY NAMES IS THAT TURBO? man i.. iam unable to think about normal sized turbos now man so Racing... ahmm.. iam reallly speachless.i don't know what i wanted to wright to you,but amazing undiscribable :unsure: |
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| Racing | Thu Nov 8, 2007 8:52 pm Post #159 |
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Member
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weneakhborz. Thanx man. Nah..just your above average sized huffer..thatīs all. :lol: Anyways. Todays crop then. New plenum.Ample volume and with the homebrew intake stacks next to it. The one to the right is still in the "raw". Everything in sight is made up from 3mm gauge aluminium.6082 to be more exact. ..and as can be seen full radii of course. As i cut the OEM oilfilterhousing down..i needed a new adapter for an OEM Merc filter,and then of as minescule proprtions as could be had. This is the result,and again of course with AN12 weld bungs. Yup..even e small bracket so we can bolt the POS up where we find space :lol: Thing is..when done a LOT of the aluminium pts will get a turnaround trip for the anodizer bath..so donīt fret as far as finish go just yet. |
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| RobertE | Thu Nov 8, 2007 8:58 pm Post #160 |
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Serial victim...
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That is gorgeous work, Jesper; well done! (I know you do it for a living, but F**K, all the same).
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9:33 AM Jul 11