| Welcome to Mercedes-190.co.uk We are the Mercedes 190 owners forum, the place to be for all owners and fans of the Mercedes 190E, 190 and 190D cars. Including Cosworth (2.3 16v and 2.5 16v), EVO 1 and EVO 2 models. Modified and concourse, track cars and daily drivers, all are welcome. This free UK based forum was started back in November 2005 to serve the Mercedes 190 W201 community and now has over 9000 members from all around the world and 600,000 + posts. The members welcome you and encourage you to stay a while and have a look around. We offer you friendly chat and access to some very useful information as well as tutorials with photos and videos for many common repair and maintenance jobs. Whatever your needs there is a good chance you will be able to find what your looking for. Such as our Mercedes 190 buyers guide Sign up to gain access to all areas including for sale / classified areas and country wide meetings and events. Many forum features and sections are only available once you sign up. Join our forum at mercedes-190.co.uk! If you're already a member please log in to your account: **New members signing up** please check your junk mail for the email authorization email otherwise we cannot verify your new account. I have noticed a lot of unauthorized accounts in the system. Regards Admin |
| Turbo Questions Guys-in Here | |
|---|---|
| Tweet Topic Started: Sun Aug 26, 2007 8:43 pm (29,806 Views) | |
| Neil | Tue May 13, 2008 4:07 pm Post #321 |
|
Newbie
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Please could this epic thread be pinned? Drama aside, it contains some of the most valuable Turbocharging information on the entire site. TIA
|
![]() |
|
| dave_irl | Tue May 13, 2008 4:55 pm Post #322 |
|
Defector
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Done.
|
![]() |
|
| dennisbots | Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:23 am Post #323 |
|
Part of things
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
In hope to bring this topic back from the dead. Does anybody now what the ''rules'' are for an exhaust diameter with an centrifugal supercharger? I am still running the idea of fitting a rotrex c38 charger to my engine instead of a turbo. (Jesper you may step in if you want) Edited by dennisbots, Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:25 am.
|
![]() |
|
| Mohammad | Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:23 pm Post #324 |
|
weneakhborz
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
hi man.why the centrifugal supercharger?the twinscrew is better and much easier.or you have somne thing in your mind about it you can share with us? |
![]() |
|
| zoomer46 | Sat Jun 21, 2008 9:44 pm Post #325 |
![]()
More than part of things
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
from what i can gather from others ,3 inch bore exhaust is good for up to around 550bhp, especially when designed well and has a decat section,seems like there is plenty of room for this size under the 190e, only issue i can see with the diameter is the downpipe near the steering column,as its a squeeze down there, but hey dennis, this is a rhd issue and not an issue for you! pipe diameters can be roughly raised by 1.4inch increments,so if you want to be sure 3'' is not going to be a problem go to 3 1/4 inch dia, 3.5inches is really 600-900bhp territory, what is your hp aim dennis? |
![]() |
|
| dennisbots | Sun Jun 22, 2008 8:12 am Post #326 |
|
Part of things
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Wel i have the rotrex c38-81 in mind. Here is some information about the rotrex: http://www.rotrex.com/pdfs/Rotrex_Technical_Datasheet_C38_Range_V4.0.pdf It is made for the 400 to 630 BHP range and that is where i want my car to run in. Screw compressors indeed give more boost at low rpm but: They are much bigger in disign They give more heat tot the air They need oil feed and return (rotrex hase an own oil/cooling system) And they are 1000euro+ more expensive as a rotrex. And there was one thing more but i cant remember now because my hangover haha @zoomer Yea that are the diameter goals when turbo charging. But i have read somewhere that with a SC the exhaust diameter can be smaller? I have 1 rear muffler and 1 free flow cat of 3inch i think that is going under the car. Edited by dennisbots, Sun Jun 22, 2008 8:17 am.
|
![]() |
|
| zoomer46 | Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:56 pm Post #327 |
![]()
More than part of things
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
i see more now where you are coming from with the the backpressure dynamics likely to be different with a supercharger as opposed to a turbo,so in my opinion designing a good exhaust for a s/charger is more likely related to a highly tuned n/a engine, which is better tuned with twin pipe systems,not sure if twin pipes are the best for a supercharger especially though ,but at least we can roughly gauge that at least 3'' dia is enough to pass 500bhp-ish with a turbo,so surely the same amount of gases will pass with a 500bhp-ish s/charged engine. here are some pics of the most powerful merc 190 dtm exhaust systems ,you will have to scroll... http://s14.zetaboards.com/mercedes_190_club/topic/218952/1/?x=30#new my opinion would be to design as same as turbo system and a bigger branch manifold than standard at the front. here is some more help http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Miscellaneous/exhausttheory.htm Edited by zoomer46, Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:06 pm.
|
![]() |
|
| Lewis 190E 2.5 16 | Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:07 pm Post #328 |
![]()
W201
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
have to agree with Anthony there it just seems more logical to go with a single pipe set up. While all this power is being produced have you thought about what timing chain you are going to be using as the OEM one will Stretch if you going for around 500BHP. I've yet to find anyone who will supply and make upgraded timing chains, Reading on the Rev there does seem to be a company producing stronger timing chains. I also prefer the screw superchargers but can see why your going for the Rotrex, its a lot smaller in design, over in Japan a member is running a centrifugal supercharger on a M104, thinking about it fair amount of people are using the centrifugal supercharger,still prefer the screw type, see one mounted on the side of a 16v and it looks so right. Edited by Lewis 190E 2.5 16, Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:09 pm.
|
![]() |
|
| dennisbots | Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:24 pm Post #329 |
|
Part of things
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
@zoomer. I think the twin exhaust used in the dtm hase more to do with the rules of the dtm then beeing the ''best'' exhaust for a tuned 16v. I think if the guys had no rules at the time they had a hole other exhaust design that made some more hp then the one in the picture's. @Lewis Timing chain will probably be an tsjubaki as discussed on the rev. I have to contact the dealer and ask some questions about the hardness and stretch but i think the standerd roller chain will do fine. Main reassons of the chain stretch are that the roller wair out and not the chain material is streched. For the 2.5 double chain the RF06B-2 will fit and for the singel 2.3 the RF06B-1 Here is the link to the chains http://tsubaki.eu/chain/bsdin-european-standard-chain/#Single I go with an 3inch pipe and see what it brings. If it is to small then i can go bigger when the time is there. |
![]() |
|
| andyw1979 | Thu Jul 10, 2008 5:27 pm Post #330 |
|
Part of things
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Ok, totally lost me on most words in this post but..., in simple terms, just bought myself a 2.5 16V Cosworth, is completely standard apart from a K&N air filter - just outta interest, what would I need to do to it to put a turbo on? Costs involved etc.... Cheers guys. |
![]() |
|
| Lewis 190E 2.5 16 | Thu Jul 10, 2008 6:56 pm Post #331 |
![]()
W201
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Covered many a time. But costs wise, depends, you would need to go with EFI to supply the extra fueling, stock intake can be kept and striped down. Saves costs there, Saab fuel rails (built in fuel reg) are popular or fab your own. Your best bet is to PM Sham as he has a custom fuel rail for his and he maybe able to help you out. Your looking at a lot of money for a EFI and turbo set up, T4 and an intercooler of a good size is needed and a up rated Mocal oil cooler is a good idea. Electric fan conversion is good to have manual override to keep the engine cooler as the viscous fan is not as effective as a electric fan conversion. Again there are plenty of threads on this so I'm not going to go over it but have a good look around the site, all information is here, just takes some digging. You can use the stock exhaust manifold flip it and cut/weld collectors on for the turbo flange or custom fab your own manifold with the collectors for the turbo. Run a 3" system and a nice back box, again its costly, if you have mates that work in this sort of area it all helps. I’d say for an EFI conversion you’re looking at £1,000 without fitting. Then there is getting it on the runners to set it all up etc. Another 3k for the turbo and all the bits needed, in total your looking at 5k+ for a turbo install with up rated pistons and valve springs. Should see power or around 350-400bhp, then there is upgrading of the clutch as past 300BHP it doesn’t hold up well, the stock chain is good for 400bhp but you may want to change all the guide rails, tensioner etc. Edited by Lewis 190E 2.5 16, Thu Jul 10, 2008 6:57 pm.
|
![]() |
|
| zoomer46 | Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:41 pm Post #332 |
![]()
More than part of things
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
i may sell my system in the future,not sure when as i'm not sure what i'm in for when the car gets back to the uk..:( |
![]() |
|
| andyw1979 | Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:29 am Post #333 |
|
Part of things
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
So basically, best to keep everything on it orginal. Worth doing if it was all in £1k to buy and fit. I know that over the years the car would have lost horse power, just wondering what the best ways are to get them back..., replace engine parts (which ones, in a kind of where do you start situation?). Is it worth getting it re-tuned? |
![]() |
|
| Lewis 190E 2.5 16 | Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:35 am Post #334 |
![]()
W201
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Top end freshen up is a good idea and fit EFI. Leave the turbo until a later date or funds allow for a turbo to be added. But EFI is very worth while. |
![]() |
|
| dennisbots | Fri Jul 11, 2008 5:26 pm Post #335 |
|
Part of things
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Before any tuning i would advise to do a leak/compression test to look ad what the state the engine is. Probably it needs a valve regrind and new piston rings. Ad a new distribution chain/guides to that to be sure. And alot of little things. What was bad on the car will brake when you put some power on it so start of with a good basic car/engine. The upsitedown oem hedder is not as easy as it seems. You have verry less space to ad a air filter and you have to reroute 1 hedder pipe. To make extra space for the turbo/hedder jesper put the altenator where the oem airco pump sits. And sometimes he use higher engine mounts (from a truck) to make more space for the hedder. When you do this it's better you now your way around with a tig welder or have a friend do the work. Or send it to a tuner and pay the big bill's If your real serieus to ad a turbo please read this topic till you understand what it al means and make a list what you need. And then again read it 2 more time's All information is in this topic i think Edited by dennisbots, Fri Jul 11, 2008 5:28 pm.
|
![]() |
|
| zoomer46 | Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:04 pm Post #336 |
![]()
More than part of things
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
good point dennis, its not at all straight forward,and to do it properlyis think of a number and times it by 5 at least. pistons conrods valves , cams , turbo ,ex- manifold , pipework , intercooler ,custom inlet manifold , new injection system, new electronics/management , shed loads of labour. better cooling system ,bigger bore exhaust system. and dennis,any luck wth the super-charger exhaust research ? |
![]() |
|
| dennisbots | Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:20 pm Post #337 |
|
Part of things
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Well i orderd the rotrex c38-81 centrifugal supercharger a few days ago from the usa. It is good for an 400-630hp. I did not do alot more research about the exhaust design but it seems that the rule's are the same as for an NA exhaust so now i just make a 3inche pipe all the way from the hedder. With one rear muffler and maybe 1 cat but i can take it out after my yearly checkup. I have to do a little reading on the collector but i have some good books that explane all of that. Next week i go to a tuner and order wiseco pistons, carrilo connecting rods and a VEMS stand alone and a idle valve. I was there last saterday but the guys where at a dyno shop. Ferrea valve's are in backorder to. Same for heavvy duty valve springs, alumek retainers, JM3 valve guides, stiffer eninge mounts, delrin bushings all over the car, and JM3 shifting bushings. Alumec is an sort of strong aluminium and JM3 is a sort of bronze. I want the car to handle 9000rpm so i thought it was wise to adjust a thing or 2 haha.
Edited by dennisbots, Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:24 pm.
|
![]() |
|
| zoomer46 | Fri Jul 11, 2008 10:44 pm Post #338 |
![]()
More than part of things
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
great work dennis, at last an original idea for tuning the 16valve !!!!!!! this will be an awesome car when finished,and will be following it closely, i have a thought about the header,i'm thinking that the standard 16v one will not flow enough for the power you will be making?maybe up to 400bhp ok but after i think from logic it may be a bottleneck for the gases... maybe a dtm spec large bore ex header or the same bore as jespers turbo header,still not sure if back pressure is as important as just being able to get the gases out as easily as possible with the super charger set-up. as for the pistons and other engine parts ,these things are of great interest,also the delrin bushes sound great! especially as i want my car to work as well as poss on the tracks. are you getting the valve gear and delrin stuff from jesper? |
![]() |
|
| dennisbots | Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:03 pm Post #339 |
|
Part of things
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Wel i think the 2.5 hedder will be good till just before 500hp but that's more a feeling then a calculation haha. A dtm hedder would be sweet but they are expensive as hell and you have alot of variations in them because they used different one's for different kind of tracks. But first i have my hands full to overgrow the 2.5 hedder. And yes the above parts are in backorder with jesper. The ferrea valve's come from ferrea usa. It is nice to order parts in the usa, just the SC alone saved me about 900euro because the dollar is so low. |
![]() |
|
| zoomer46 | Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:32 pm Post #340 |
![]()
More than part of things
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
are using larger valves and are you porting the head for extra flow? good point on the dollar too,shame we can't get all the stuff from there,but have you checked out how much the import duty is going to cost? i got a load of stuff from thee once and got a stupid huge bill for duty at the airport.! |
![]() |
|
| dennisbots | Sat Jul 12, 2008 6:31 pm Post #341 |
|
Part of things
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Maybe i go bigger in valve head diameter but the wall between the valve's is verry thin. ( if it take's to long from ferrea to get the right outlet valve's because they are not in stock right now i order 34.5mm valve's instead of 33mm) When i think about it (now) it is not a bad idea to do that because the flow of the outlet is not so good vs the intake I'm going to change the valve stem diameter to 7mm for in and outlet. And yes the head is going to be ported. I want to make the intake/runners 1,5-2mm bigger and the exhaust need alot of porting. I want to leave the combustion chamber as it is accept to smooth it out a little. For the import price I orderd a clutch from SPEC USA that cost 850 dollar + 150 dollar shipping and the import here cost me 160 euro. But it is still alot cheaper then buying one over here from a SPEC dealer. Edited by dennisbots, Sat Jul 12, 2008 6:33 pm.
|
![]() |
|
| dennisbots | Sat Jul 12, 2008 6:48 pm Post #342 |
|
Part of things
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
i just send a mail to ferrea to order some valve's. I orderd these 8x f1419p 8x f1418p Just put the numbers in the search at this site and you see the valve dimensions. http://www.ferrea.com/catalog/2008/ferrea_08cat_motorcycle.pdf The intake valve's are 2mm to big and need to be machined. They all need to be shorter and make a groove in there. I have a cnc guy that can make this for me. |
![]() |
|
| dennisbots | Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:12 pm Post #343 |
|
Part of things
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
good news for me catcams have 'turbo profile' camshafts for the 16v orderd a set and here are the spec: duration[0.1mm+cl] IN 282° EX 261° duration[1.0mm+cl] IN 248° EX 224° valve lift [cl=0] IN 11.50mm EX 10.15mm peak angle IN 110° EX 120° timing[1.0mm+cl] IN 14/54° EX 52/-8° lift at TDC[cl=0] IN 2.95mm EX 0.75mm Edited by dennisbots, Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:13 pm.
|
![]() |
|
| dave_irl | Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:42 pm Post #344 |
|
Defector
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Nice to have full specs on the cam. I also contacted catcams to see if they can make me a custom cam - didnt hear back yet though. I want something a bit more aggressive than then "fast road" one I have now. Keep up the good work |
![]() |
|
| dennisbots | Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:01 pm Post #345 |
|
Part of things
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
im sorry to say but i don't know what engine you are runnig Where you the one with the low boost turbo kit? Also if you pick a cam for turbo charging watch out you don't pick a cam with to much valve overlap. Then you only blow air into your exhaust and you dont want that. They have options enough if you have a NA 16v engine tho. All the full data of the cams are on there site http://www.catcams.be/index.htm You probably know this but Dbilas also offers cams for all kind of mercedes engine's: http://www.dbilas-dynamic.de/dbilas_eng/index.htm Edited by dennisbots, Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:12 pm.
|
![]() |
|
| zoomer46 | Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:03 pm Post #346 |
![]()
More than part of things
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
great news on the turbo cams eh, i was aware that catcams do the turbo profile which is handy,and am planning on them too,so it will be interesting to see what results you get,the only concern is that with the similar balls out tuning that we have similar idea's on ,is that with the porting ,bigger valves,turbo cams,i have a feeling that the powerband is going to come in quite late and hard which is great on track but on road may not so ideal?and that the full efficiency is reached high in the powerband,i guess some of the lag can be dialled out with good fueling and some anti-lag control. btw ,daveIRL is building a track 190 with super high revving 1.837litre single cam engine ,its in the finally got the car home thread. |
![]() |
|
| dennisbots | Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:18 pm Post #347 |
|
Part of things
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
yes i also think the power band will come a bit late. I have the centrifugal compressor to smooth it out a little (is the idea). But when the engine come's late and it keep on going treu the rev's it is not a verry big problem. You just rev the engine more. I also dont live in a big city so the driving i do is more high speed driving then slow city driving. The time's i come into a situation that i have to drive slow or are in a traffic jam, wel thats suck then but i dont built a fast car to drive slow. ( and i love the sound of a hot cam and high rev's haha) O yea zoomer sorry to say but i have stolen your idea from your front bumper lip. It just looks to good to not do it i will check out dave's car |
![]() |
|
| dave_irl | Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:04 pm Post #348 |
|
Defector
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Dennis, my friend, I did not know, and now I am very pleased to see camshafts for the M102 8v!! Now I must see if the 1.8 and 2.0 cam are swappable, i.e will it fit in the same journals in the head. If so, I can then go for one of the "rally" cams, and finally realise the dream of some bigger power! My engine builder friend is really pushing for bigger cam, as he knows thats where a lot of n/a power comes from.. And he got 180hp from a 1600cc 4AGE so I trust him... dbilas even offer cams for both mechanical and hyraulic lifters.. I am swapping to mechanical lifters for simplicity and higher rev capability, I read that the hydro ones dont like high rpms, not to mention I dont like ticking so much.. I think manual adjusting is a small price to pay eh. Thanks again for the link, very good news. |
![]() |
|
| Matt | Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:53 pm Post #349 |
![]()
Administrator - Hawk Eye
![]()
|
I can tell anyone for fact that if you think you can put a turbo system together on the cheap, forget it. Not if you want a proper reliable system. The figures really start add up. |
![]() |
|
| Michael | Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:51 pm Post #350 |
|
Needs Help
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
No post-mortems guys , it's so good to see a bit of spunk back in the forum and actually the timing is perfect. Most of you know, I'm a manufacturers standard man all the time, but since I've aquired a nice 2.5-16 spare engine, I'm busting to know what I can get done with it. For starters the EFI thing interests me . Sock it to me. |
![]() |
|
| twogood | Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:59 pm Post #351 |
|
???
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
efi is a waste of money |
![]() |
|
| Lewis 190E 2.5 16 | Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:01 am Post #352 |
![]()
W201
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
How did you work that one out? |
![]() |
|
| Michael | Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:05 am Post #353 |
|
Needs Help
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Do tell.
|
![]() |
|
| Mark216T | Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:11 am Post #354 |
|
Rest In Peace, Mark. You Will Always Be Missed
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
That depends My 3.2 24v is already EFi and powerful as well as economical Once boosted EFI is the only real route to go if you want to fuel accurately I know I could run a piggy back on a low boost M103 or M104 Kjet with no problems, but the results will be better with EFI |
![]() |
|
| Michael | Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:18 am Post #355 |
|
Needs Help
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Fuel accuracy, is the key to the whole thing as far as I can see from what I've read on the forum, and on the other hand, fuel inaccuracy is lethal for a 2.5-16, I know all about it and I've an invoice to prove it.
|
![]() |
|
| Matt | Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:19 am Post #356 |
![]()
Administrator - Hawk Eye
![]()
|
Efi a waste of money? Like to hear how that conclusion is come about. |
![]() |
|
| Matt | Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:22 am Post #357 |
![]()
Administrator - Hawk Eye
![]()
|
The biggest waste of money is replacing old Bosch parts on the KE system not converting to Efi. |
![]() |
|
| twogood | Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:26 am Post #358 |
|
???
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
What happened to your engine??? |
![]() |
|
| Matt | Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:29 am Post #359 |
![]()
Administrator - Hawk Eye
![]()
|
Running rich or weak Michael? |
![]() |
|
| Michael | Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:32 am Post #360 |
|
Needs Help
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I'll tell the whole story later, but in the meantime, my advice is: if your car is drinking petrol and there are no obvious reasons, get friendly with your bank manager. Now then, why is EFI a waste of money? :unsure: |
![]() |
|
| 1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous) | |
![]() Our users say it best: "Zetaboards is the best forum service I have ever used." |
|
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · Engine · Next Topic » |







![]](http://z2.ifrm.com/static/1/pip_r.png)








9:33 AM Jul 11