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190 Car Heater, And Heater Matrix Problems; Step by step possible solution.
Topic Started: Sat Dec 8, 2007 7:50 pm (27,052 Views)
julian
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190 Car Heater and heater matrix fault.

This is how I cured the problem following some advice from an engineer, who happens to be my younger brother.



Car heater poor performance.

SYMPTOMS
1. Poor levels of heat from vents.
2. Sporadic levels of heat when engine at full temp.
3. Heaters going cold when engine at full temp.
4. Outlet hose from matrix cool or warm, when engine at full temp.
5. Car interior takes a long time to heat up from cold start.
6. No heat from lower vents, but some heat from upper vents.

DIAGNOSIS
1. Thermostat failure
2. Heater valve failure, situated below wiper assembly below windscreen.
3. Vacuum pipe to top of valve faulty, or no vacuum
4. Air lock in matrix or coolant system
5. inlet outlet hose blockage.

When all those are checked, then the likely hood is that a blocked or clogged heater matrix is the cause.

To replace one of these could cost between £300 and £500 So before you spend lots of money, or undertake a DIY full dashboard removal. Try this.

Tools required.
Small compressor
Air blow gun
Various screwdrivers for jubilee clips.
8/10mm sockets or spanner to remove air filter housing.
Bowl to collect coolant.
Garden hose pipe and spare hose.
Small to medium Funnel
Jug exceeding 1 pint
Caustic soda

This might solve the problem.

The following is a description of how I back-flushed the heater matrix which solved the problem of the car heater not producing a steady hot air flow into the car.

Assuming you have checked the heater valve and other possible causes listed above, the following method can be tried.

1. Drain the cooling system. Remove header tank cap then drain coolant using the drain plug bottom left of radiator by removing spoiler insert. Drain into bowl or other suitable receptacle.

2. Disconnect the inlet and outlet hoses to the heater matrix. Firstly disconnect the outlet hose Left where it connects to the rigid length of pipe situated above the alternator. Leave the jubilee clip loose on the rubber hose for later use.

Posted Image

3. Removal of the air filter casing will be required to gain easy access to the inlet hose. Disconnect the inlet hose from the rear of the engine block by oil filter, again keeping jubilee clip around hose.

4. Now you need to connect your garden/tap hose pipe to the outlet hose. Simply slip the garden hose 3 to 4 inches inside the rubber hose, tighten the existing jubilee clip until tight. This is enough to make a water tight seal.

5. Now use a bit of scrap hose 3 to 6 f/t and do the same to the inlet hose, this is so the water flushed through will exit outside the engine bay.

6. Turn the tap on slowly, you can collect any coolant that will come out of the short hose if you want to save or inspect it. Then turn the tap slowly up to full blast for about one minute, check inside the car that no water is leaking from the matrix when you start this process, just in case the matrix has a leak. I noticed a small drip of water on the passenger side lower centre console. On removal of the lower dash (3 screws) I could see where two 8mm bolt heads hold in the alloy inlet pipe to the matrix, I just nipped them up a bit tighter, and drip stopped. Strange though as I never noticed a drip there previously, possibly the increased water pressure exposed this.
7. Now you need to empty the matrix of water. I used a small air compressor with blower attachment. The nozzle on the blower was thin, so I drilled a 5mm hole through a wine cork which I inserted into the outlet hose, secured with jubilee clip. Then blew the matrix through, gentle air pressure first, then numerous blasts of air around 60psi

Posted Image

8. Now disconnect air connection, and raise the hose between Rad return pipe and pipe that goes to servo. Secure with a cable tie so it’s pointing upwards. Then insert an appropriate sized funnel in to the same outlet hose, making a tight fit in the rubber hose.

9. Now mix one pint of warm water with a tablespoon of caustic soda. When the crystals are fully dissolved pour the pint slowly into the matrix. Leave for about 15 minutes, (No Longer) then rig up the water hose again and blast it through again. Make sure the pipe where it exits is in a drain or bucket that can be transferred to a drain. Run water through the matrix for at least 3 minutes to ensure all traces of caustic soda have been removed.
10. Now just for good measure, blast through with air again, lots of short blasts is best to remove any loose bits remaining.

11. Now reconnect everything back up not forgetting to turn off drain cock on Rad, and refill via header tank with removed coolant. Run engine keep topping with coolant and squeeze the fat hose over the thermostat to help coolant circulate and extract air. By the time you’ve done this your heaters will already be producing warm air if this has worked. Let engine reach full temp checking coolant level and topping us as necessary. If this has worked properly, and blower on the 2 setting the air from vents will be so hot it’s uncomfortable to keep your hand in front of vent.


Please note that Caustic Soda is an acid, so read instructions closely. Also Aluminium is a soft metal, and long exposure to Caustic Soda might damage the matrix. You can try just flushing without using caustic soda first if that’s a worry. At the end of the day this was a last ditch attempt before having to remove the matrix, it happened to solve the problem.

However I will not be held responsible for anything that goes wrong using this method, you do so at your own risk.

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cossie connoisseur
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there can be only one ;-)
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thats so got to be pinned B)
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julian
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Cheers cossie
Hope someone tries this soon too, as it would be nice to confirm this worked for someone else ;)
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julian
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Just been browsing the net and have found out that many other car forums have used back flushing the matrix to solve their car heater problem, and in most cases has solved the problem.

The Land Rover forum - Omega owners forum - Hilman Imp club - Ford Transit forum, and loads others :ehh:

Although none suggested using caustic soda to loosen gunk or debris, so a straight back flush with tap water might do the trick :)
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stwat
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Nice. Stuck at the top :) B)
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julian
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Aw nice one cheers Stu :)
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mercjim
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nice 1...

i just did mine with water, no caustic or air pressure as dont have a compressor...

anyway... i whacked a minutes worth of water the wrong way which produced a lot of brown water then run clear....
put water thru right way and a bit more brown water came out...
put water wrong way again and was running clear......

put everything back to normal, refilled etc.....

temp is lovely now... but still cools a bit b4 main fan kicks in, then gets really hot again....

but b4 i started it was luke warm period....

thx bud... great post.

p.s. and where did you get that avatar stwat lol... its awesome...
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julian
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Nice one M8 that's good news :) Give another update in a few days, you might have cleared the matrix of muck, but the odd air lock here and there till the system settles down may be aparrent still. When these heaters work properly they're very hot.

The description below is a reply to roberts post about this issue.

This is basically how the heater should perform when working properly.

Since backflushing my heater Matrix the additional heat through the interior heaters is quite amazing. I now begin getting warm air in just 1 mile, within 3 miles even this morning which was below freezing I was getting so much heat I had to turn the temp dials down, in 4 miles I was at full temp. Before sorting this problem I was only getting luke warm heat at best at around 4 miles 10 minutes driving.

Now when the car is at full engine temp, you can't hold your hand in front of the side vent for too long as it really does start to burn you. Also we tried driving with heaters on full temp with all the windows closed, it gets so hot you can feel the heat on your face. An astonishing transformation from what it was before. Cruising now in cold weather the temp dials are set at about 3 red blips up and blowers on 1 is plenty hot enough. If your 190 isn't producing heat like this then I would almost guarantee it's a clogged or partially clogged heater matrix. Simple back flushing will solve this problem in most cases.

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Charles
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Why do car manufactures make heater matrix's so fooking hard to change, its not good to know if mine ever goes its going to be a nice dash out job!! :no:
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stwat
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Charles
Dec 16 2007, 12:58 AM
Why do car manufactures make heater matrix's so fooking hard to change, its not good to know if mine ever goes its going to be a nice dash out job!!  :no:

The heater systems in cars rely on heat exchange.

Put simply, cold air is blown through/over the heater matrix and is heated by the hot water in the matrix via heat exchange. By design the matrix has to be as close as possible to the outlet of the vents to reduce the effects of heat loss by the pipes that feed the vents etc. And that usually means having the matrix under/behind the dash to reduce the effect of heat loss etc.

So you get nicely directly heated air as opposed to lukewarm air cooled down via heat losses that would occur in the pipes if the matrix was in the engine bay or anywhere else for that matter.

Sadly that also means that the matrix's are a fecking nightmare to get to and change :lol:


Quote:
 
p.s. and where did you get that avatar stwat lol... its awesome...


TBH mate i cant remember :unsure: I have had it bobbing around on my PC for years now :lol:
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RobertE
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I recall a terminal episode with an Aston which was entirely down to a clogged heater matrix. Given that the car was - ahem 'hand-made' it should have been a breeze to fix, but extracting the thing was so complicated - dash, out; carpets, out; inner bulkhead, off, etc., etc., the unhappy punter (not me, for once) decided not to bother and pressed on regardless. On a journey to Carlisle, he noticed that the engine temperature was rising, inexorably. He had only recently installed a new Marston's radiator and filled the system with distilled water, and assumed that all was well. He had fitted it himself.

Sensibly (it was late Summer) he pulled over, let the car cool while he had lunch, and, assuming it was merely a jammed thermostat, removed that and carried on.

After about 30 miles, his engine melted.

The point is that the heater matrix is merely a secondary radiator, ususally of a smaller bore than the main one and therefore more sensitive to sludge than the big 'un, which lies closer to the water pump and therefore suffers less anyway.

We often forget these matters - a car's cooling and heating systems are actually one!
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julian
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Quote:
 
The point is that the heater matrix is merely a secondary radiator, ususally of a smaller bore than the main one and therefore more sensitive to sludge than the big 'un, which lies closer to the water pump and therefore suffers less anyway.

We often forget these matters - a car's cooling and heating systems are actually one!


Think this underlies the importance of using quality coolant in the cooling system, in years gone past I've topped up other cars I've owned with just water :lol: but the internal corrosion this causes, resulting debris and sludge is what cause the cooling system and interior matrix problems. I now go OTT with coolant in the hope of keeping a nice clean system, and check header tank regularily ;)
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Charles
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I used to do just the same, it does make sense to look after the coolant, you dont even think twice about changing your oil so why over look the quality of the coolant in the car.

Brake fluid is worth changing every two to three years or so aswell, because brake parts can be expensive to replace and you can end up will small amount of water in fluid, even though it sounds not right, plus good brake performance is most important!
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Samnav2
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I have just back flushed mine, gave it a good 20 minutes and repeatedly turned the water on and off for the last 5 minutes to put some surges through. A quick run around the block and heat is flowing out. Going for a run now but I expect it to be OK. Well done Juilian.
Colin
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julian
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Brilliant :) hopefully another possiblly extremely expensive repair, sorted for next to nothing. mercjim also had some success, hopefully he'll update as to if it's still working, mine certainly is, and with the weather being so clod here at the moment, I'm sure glad i got it sorted :)
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Samnav2
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Done about 60 miles this afternoon and the heater is great. Had to have the control knob set in the "twenty to"position otherwise it was too hot.
Colin
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mercjim
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mmm, just got back from a few days away in wolverhampton... back to leeds.
after i set off on sunday, the heat was ok, not red hot but good...
got on the m1 and it was back to the old tricks..... warm, luke warm, cold... back to warm....

i put a lot of water both ways thru the matrix, there is no leaks inside the car....

when i got to my mates, i took out the control modual below the wiper motor and replaced with a length og copper tube to see if it was working ok....

went for a spin, 20 miles... still the same....

the inlet pipe is red hot... but the outlet is luke warm.....

what do you reckon to me removing the thermostat, running it for a mile or 2 see if thats the problem?

by the way, in no way am i saying the original post was crap cause it didnt work, its a great post and glad everyone else seems to have solved their probs with little expense....
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julian
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I really think it's still the matrix still, as the symptoms are very similar to mine.

removing the thermostat, running it for a mile or 2 see if thats the problem is worth a try. but if fails, use the airliney too, as air pressure is much more efficient that water pressure. I used the caustic soda too as it will breakdown fatty deposits that would hold other grime firm. The full treatment as I did should work, and is worth another try before thinking of removing it. Mine had stayed completely clear, it's just so hot now, just like my old 2.0 was.
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Samnav2
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If the inlet pipe is red hot and the outlet pipe only luke warm means that the heater matrix has become blocked again preventing the coolant from flowing through. The engine block must contain a lot of contamination and needs a good flushing. So far the flush through the matrix has been successful on mine. I don't think removing the thermostat will achieve anything other than make your engine run cold
Colin
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julian
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Yeah I'm thinking that your system as a whole might be quite mucky, if you backflushed and it worked for a while, but has now reverted to cool again, that would suggest some re-clogging of the matrix. Course when I did this solution my system was already clean from previous tinkering, so as yet my heater has held out ok so far. So I would say back flush the matrix again, then flush through the engine system as well whilst the matrix is still disconnected. When reconnected the system in theory should be muck free.

Oh yeah the inlet being hot and outlet being cool confirms the matrix is blocked or partially blocked at least.
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jeremy
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Tip,

This one I picked up when I did some work in the alps,

Drain ALL the water out,and refill with anti freeze only, this is a must if you live
somewhere where the temperature regularly dips below -10.

Ive been told that when you buy a new car, you should do this anyway, and not let
water anywhere near your rad.

anyone else heard of this?

also, if you dont have a blower on your car ,(like me) a short term solution for winter is to go to maplin electronics and get a ceramic heater which plugs into the cigar lighter, and sits on the top of the dash, Part no A75FL , & costs less than
seven quid......

good luck guys, Happy holidays.
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mercjim
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what if the plastic block thing with the air pressure pipe going in the top as something to do with it... say when i start the car it goes in to auto close and never opens....

but, i will go give the back flush another go.... im gonna run the caustic right thru the water system, will probably melt my engine lol...
but getting tired of stuff going wrong now....
i love my 190... but its getting tiresome...
im working on something or another every bloody weekend it seems....

anyhow.... thx for all your replies guys
i'll let ya know what happens

jim

p.s. all the best for the holiday season... and im in the uk....never hits -10 unless leeds (hell) freezes over
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jeremy
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So
sorry should have said.........When you drain.......
this is in addition to everything Julian said ....brilliant post M8...
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julian
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I wouldnt put caustic in the engine end of the water system as it will come in contact with some inner componatns that it could harm. Use the caustic only in the matrix as I've described and for no longer than stated. The componants from the matrix inlet and outlet are rubber and aluminium, caustic will attack aliminium if exposed to it for a long time. Rubber and plastics will be ok. So stick to the caustic on the matrix, but just run loads of clear water through the rest of the engine system, 15 20 mins should clear most the crap, especially if you have good tap pressure. If you can use air pressure too as described it will also help loosen muck from the matrix. Loads of short blasts of air will do much more than water, wouldn't harm the engine either as long as the air can escape.
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julian
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Quote:
 
what if the plastic block thing with the air pressure pipe going in the top as something to do with it... say when i start the car it goes in to auto close and never opens....


To check this make sure you can feel suction through the thin red pipe going in to the top of the valve, when the engine is warming up you will detect suction at some stage. If thats ok then remove the valve and suck on the top nipple the valve should close, stop sucking and the valve should open. If it doesn't it's jammed, playing with it might loosen it up.
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mercjim
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well, did the caustic wash... run boat loads of water thru it... then connected the inlet , put the edder tank cap back on but left hose pipe connected to the outlet from heater... left it running for about an hour... every so often putting my finger over the swan neck where the outlet fits on to the aluminium pipe from water pump just for added pressure thru the radiator.....

turned water off, cut hose pipe about 2 feet worth without undoing jubilee clip so i had something to blow down....

blew down it to empty matrix , engine and radiator....

fastened everything back up... topped up and son started car while i was topping up....

went for a short spin...... and dried my eye balls...
the heat from the matrix was unreal.....

i only drove 3 miles max and it was burning hot...

caustic does work....

thx again....
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julian
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Nice one Jim

Hopefully it'll stay that way, mine has no problem, let us know how it's going in a week or so ;)
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oneninety
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A ha! The post I was looking for, off to get the caustic soda and to ask my neighbour if his compressor airline will reach to the front of our house!

P.S. Mercjim, how's that repair working for you over a week later?

>EDIT

This worked for me, for the full run down.
How I got on here...
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edd91
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HI GUYS,
what if there is just no hot air what-so-ever is coming out any vents? How can I diagnose this?

Also, if the right heat dial is on 0, there is a slight hiss coming from within the dash
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JensonGB
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The hiss sounds like a vacuum line has come adrift at the back of the dials, that may be your problem. If it doesn't sort it and you're not even getting luke warm air, either you heater matrix is completely blocked or the heater control valve has failed or the vacuum lines have come off it. Its to the lefthand side of the windscreen wiper motor.
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protearose
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Hello.






Hello. Is there any way that the heater matrix can be removed without removing the whole dash to get at it. I have tried to flush it out with various scale removers without success. I am getting grief from the better half because the car is so cold now the weather is getting wintry. Thanks.









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chilsta
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I don't think so, no. I had to replace mine about 3 winters ago. Got the stealership to look into where the water on my front floor was coming from and they said the matrix was shot. Was quite a job, but nothing too bad- just a lot of taking apart and putting back together. I got all the new air seals that I could and cleaned off all the black foam seals from the metal air deflecting plates which was turning to dust and would blow out of the air vents and into your face on a hot day with the fan on high. Which was nice.

If you're following the Haynes guide- I'm pretty sure you don't need to take the steering wheel off, which wasn't fun without a puller.

In the end I was pretty sure it wasn't a leak in my matrix, but the rubber O rings that are on the matrix's in and outlets. They were completely hard and crumbly. Just in case anyone has a leaking matrix & finds this, I'm pretty sure you could replace those O rings without removing the dash- would certainly be worth a try before ripping the dash out.

I took a few photos during the replacement. PM me if you're interested in those.

Best part was driving it round for a week without a dash. I had a bypassing hose in the engine bay to bypass the heater matrix and the cluster held in place by the speedo cable and wiring harness. Was great for pretending I was mad Max ;)
Edited by chilsta, Tue Oct 7, 2008 8:24 pm.
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protearose
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Hello. hot water going into the matrix, hot water coming out but no heat in the car ? Any ideas ? Thanks
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protearose
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Hello again. To answer any questions, yes the fan is blowing on all four speeds and the direction flaps are working but the faster the fan the colder it gets.
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RichardCC
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Hi Guys,

Had the 'cold heater' problem and read this thread with interest. Bought new thermostat, took top hose connector engine mounting off to put in new thermostat and snapped stud in the process - that's another story on another thread - BUT of course on the 190D 2.5 the thermostat is in the bottom hose housing on the left hand side of the engine (standing at the front of engine).

Just thought I'd bring this to the attention of other 'newbies' hoping they won't make the same mistake.

Anyway took of the correct hose mounting and lo and behold - NO THERMOSTAT at all - so I guess that's why I have got 'cold heaters'.

Too dark to work on (and wet and cold) any further this evening, but I'll finish off tomorrow and let you know the results. I'm hoping this cures my 'cold heater' problems, if not I'll be studying this thread again,

Cheers

Richard

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murgy
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if you take it to the garage they tell and charge you for 6hours work plus vat make sure you look around been there it was easier to sell the car
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CrysAk
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i have this issue on the 16v! great post, :D
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RichardCC
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Latest sitrep,
yesterday got everything back together late in the day and the last thing to go back was the fuel return line from no 1 injector to the fuel filter. It was that old that there was no way I was able to get it back on. Got some new line from LDV car parts and connected up okay. Tried to start the car to no avail and wondered why. I'd put new glow plugs in and noticed on the 3rd or 4th attempt to start that the glow plug light on the dash was not lit. Further investigation and the culprit was the 80A blade fuse in the glow plug control unit (on inside wing on nearside). Mercs main dealer order at a £1.00 a throw so I ordered 2. As an aside GSFcarparts do them at 30p each (only found that out tonight).
When I get them and fit them in on Friday I'll be able to let you know the results of the flushing, backflushing and new thermostat and whether I get heat out of the heater and not just warmish air,

Richard
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RichardCC
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Here we are again,
New fuses obtained and first one blew again when trying to start. Checked glow plug feed lines and found no 4 was shorting against air inlet manifold, readjusted it and checked the others, all okay and car started AOK. Went for drive and low and behold nice warm air at first, not hot, but better than warm. So back to square one.
Decided to check heater matrix outlet pipe first and very little fluid coming out, so checked inlet and that was nice and hot. So the matrix is blocked again. To dark now to do any more so will do the backflushing routine again tomorrow.
Instead of using caustic soda would wynns radflush work????
Thoughts please gents,

Richard
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RichardCC
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Decided to go the caustic soda route, wish I'd taken Julians advice in the first place, so will post later today to let you all know the results,

Cheers

Richard
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