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| Engine re-build or replacement?; What would you do? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:02 pm (957 Views) | |
| 190D 2.5 | Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:02 pm Post #1 |
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More than part of things
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Dear Chaps, Advice needed. I need either a replacement engine or a re-build. Both avenues aren't cheap. The replacement engine route is simple: you buy an engine off-the-shelf and the garage drops it in. The disadvantage is that you're unlikely to know of any rings/compression problems until it's too late. A re-build, if the job is done properly, should mean a genuinely new lease of life for the car. The disadvantage is that it will be costly. Probably the best part of £1,200-£1,500 and money I don't have currently (recession has taken its toll on my work). I've spent a lot of cash in the last 6 months trying to track down the poor running and bad starting thinking it was a veg related problem. So I've a new starter motor, new battery, new filters, glow plugs, etc. The bodywork generally is in good nick. I think it makes sense to keep the 190 as I would get sod all as a non-runner for it currently. I've been offered cheaper parts for a re-build through a Merc mate, though it's the labour that would be expensive which I'd have to farm out. Or find a 2.5D replacement engine and have it slotted in, though knowing bugger all about its history and whether the compression was okay. I had a laugh tonight. I called a local Merc independent, The Merc Centre, on Leabridge Road, East London to ask them if they had any replacement 2.5D engines. A guy called 'John' said he would check and call me back if they did - which he did. "One of our guys actually remembers," he said a few minutes later (cue a lot of threat clearing) "the car it came from. Well, it was immcaulate. Very low mileage. Very nice condition." He went on like this for another 30 seconds. So i asked him how much he wanted for the engine from the bewhiskered elderly gentleman with the rosy cheeks and the immaculate 190D 2.5 he had strangely scrapped. "£650 plus the VAT". Oh dear... So what would you do? Edited by 190D 2.5, Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:03 pm.
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| chrismatheou | Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:05 pm Post #2 |
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Enthusiastic Bad Boy
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Rebuild, you can't beat keeping the original engine in her
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| CrysAk | Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:12 pm Post #3 |
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Moar Bass!
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depends ont he engine.. 2.6 / 16ver i would recondition ... 8v or deisle, get a replacement one |
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| shrekky | Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:15 pm Post #4 |
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Troll hunter
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i would go for a engine rebuild..................then you know exactly what you're getting its not as hard as you think it is adrian.................the hardest bit will be getting the engine out and in,having said that,it isnt hard....take inlet manifold off,take exhaust manifold off,starter motor,power steering pump off,disconnect pipes and wires,label them if you have too,and its out.......and you can hire engine hoist for about £15 a day. the only thing you will need to tender out,will be the skimming of the cylinder head,the rest is mostly patience and common sense. it might seem daunting adrian but theres nothing more pleasing than when it fires back up for the first time ![]() |
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| Neil | Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:23 pm Post #5 |
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Newbie
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I do not like those guys. There are likely a few good eggs amongst them (their windscreen fitter is absolutely superb), but they seem to be governed by aggressive, money-hungry idiots. The last time I had a part from them was about 3 yrs ago when my rear N/S q'light was smashed and I lost my stereo. Of course, they had about 12 on the shelf, all the same price; so I cheekily asked to see a handful and pick the cleanest. All I got back was some stroppy tw*t (who seemed to run the sales counter, not do any of the fitting work or even select the parts) saying, "We are fitting used parts to your car, you have no control over their condition, if you want new parts you should go to the Dealership". I haven't been back there.
Forgive me Adrian, I know sweet F.A. about Diesel engines - is it a head rebuild job similar to a Petrol 190? If it is, I'd be inclined to have it done even if it's a financial stretch for a bit. After all, the rest of the car is a known quantity and it's essentially a cheap car to run. The one question I have though (and I can see it being a sensitive subject!)is; Do you think that running the car on Veg Oil has sped up its demise? Feel free to tell me I'm talking sh!te, as I said I know nowt about Diesels. |
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| chrismatheou | Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:29 pm Post #6 |
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Enthusiastic Bad Boy
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Owning and driving a veg myself, I have to admit that this was the first thing that came to my mind. How many miles would you say you've done on this engine on veg? Edited by chrismatheou, Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:30 pm.
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| kentronix | Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:45 pm Post #7 |
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I'm only really here for the Kitchens
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I know you have had a right old time of it but personally I would never replace or rebuild an engine unless the engine has been diagnosed as at fault, errrr actually, or if I wanted a bigger engine ![]() If the replacement came with ALL ancillaries then I guess your safe but what happens if you get it rebuilt and it doesnt fix the problem ? If your doing this because you just want your car back and want it to be 100% working then I would say a replacement from a fully working car with all ancilliaries is the only sensible option. Just my opinion. If your going to change the engine (or rebuild) then I would suggest before you do you should bypass ALL fuel items that arent required and double check. Stick the input to the IP in a bottle of diesel, and the output from across the injectors back in the same bottle. Bypass the prefilter, fuel thermostat, heat exchanger, lift pump, canister filter (and all of its banjos), and of course all the extra gubbins your system has. Use new line that clamped with clips. It shouldnt take more than half an hour and will instantly tell you 100% if the fuel system (other than IP) is at fault. The symptoms and the way its gone down hill just doesnt point to engine wear to me. I am not an expert although I kind of am an expert on fuelling of diesels now which may be why thats where all my advice lies ![]() If I can make it I can head over at the weekend and help ya ? Edited by kentronix, Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:48 pm.
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| algord83 | Mon Jul 27, 2009 8:05 pm Post #8 |
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I can count to potato
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If you decide a new engine is the only way to go, how easy would it be, and is there any advantage, in fitting the unit from a w202? I can't remember the engine code, but i mean the one from a C250D. Isn't it a twin cam? Also, you might be able to fit a turbocharged engine. If the turbo fits past the steering box of a RHD w202, It might just fit in a 190D. I don't know really but its just a thought. I don't know if the gearbox would mate up. I've heard of this engine running on veg. I have driven a C250D turbo. It was pretty quick. It's owner claimed a better fuel consumption figure than I get from my 190D 2.5. I don't know if that is true. Al |
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| shrekky | Mon Jul 27, 2009 8:22 pm Post #9 |
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Troll hunter
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only trouble with getting a replacement engine,is although is seems to run sweet at the time.............3 months down the road you could be in exactly the same position,having already spent £500-£600. i could stand to be corrected but adrian is having compression problems,this can be due to head problems and problem with piston rings,and IMHO i personally think long term running on veg oil will cause the speeding up of engine wear,due to veggy oil being thicker and causing higher pressures. i dont know about anyone else but i've had troubles with seals blowing out due to the higher pressures,especially if left standing ![]() |
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| 190D 2.5 | Mon Jul 27, 2009 8:31 pm Post #10 |
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Thanks very much for all your thoughtful replies. A rebuild (Chrismathou and Shrekky) would be the ideal solution but I would definitely have to farm it out and it's a pricey route. Neil, we've both had crap service. That chap you mentioned is probably the same one who tried to charge me £1 for each bulb for the heater dial lights; I insisted he charged me 59p, as recommended by MB. A showdown over 59p! What a **insert swear word here**. Did the veg harm the car and hasten the engine's demise? Well, I doubt it did it any good. Still, it's done 210k and for a MB diesel, that's not a huge amount. So I'm disappointed. Ken... about to send you a PM: Yes please. I'm trying to sort a proper compression test that will give me a definitive answer on the engine, but the chap who's been recommended is on his hols. Hopefully he can give his verdict next week. I've had a truly rotten 2009 with my car. Barely been 800 miles in it. All year. ![]() Algord... It's a nice idea but I want to keep it original. Mods would affect my insurance. I know a 2.5D is slow but I still like the engine. An engine from a 202 would bring complications. And I've had complications all bloody year so I want to keep it simple. Edited by 190D 2.5, Mon Jul 27, 2009 8:32 pm.
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| kentronix | Mon Jul 27, 2009 8:50 pm Post #11 |
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I'm only really here for the Kitchens
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I dont really know that much about it but if you lost compression in a cylinder or even 2, would it not still kind of start ? At least attempt to fire even if it didnt actually run. I know when I had only 2 working glow plugs on my 2.0d and it was freezing it still started on 2 cylinders and then I held the revs up high until the other 2 warmed up enough to fire. It just strikes me as odd that all 4 cylinders would fail at the same time. Thats why I think its worth flogging the fuel delivery horse just that little bit more ![]() I would flog the timing horse but I know absolutely nothing about it ![]() Adrian, I have a nice tool for removing the injectors, we can pull them if you like, clean em and see if their state gives us clues ? |
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| feoffle | Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:49 pm Post #12 |
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Part of things
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A 4-cylinder will run on 2 or 3 cylinder, albeit badly. Aswell as doing a compression test, do a leakdown and see if you can determine the cause for the loss. Good luck.
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| HughF | Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:17 pm Post #13 |
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Part of things
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My w123 diesel (OM617.912) that had done 175k miles with a hoofing turbo strapped to the side was as worn out as a pig, it had terrible blowby and used loads of oil (although less than my 2.0 M102 does at 130k miles) but it always started. If you have an inline IP (pretty sure you do) that won't be faulty, I have never known one fail on a car, tractor, generator whatever, they are so reliable. Simple question, does it chuff/have blowby when it's running? |
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| RobertE | Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:13 pm Post #14 |
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Serial victim...
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I don't know diesels except by reputation and I would have thought that 202K is nothing for the bottom end, as I've heard of several which have done way more than 500K. I can't help thinking that it's an ancilliary problem rather than the engine itself and if that's the case then an engine swap is throwing good money after bad. But I don't know (except by reading on here) any possible side effects of running on Veg. I think that a proper diagnostic re. compressions is useful, as it would reassure you that the top end is sound. Then, an external Oil pressure test could tell you about the rest. If both are within tolerance, then you can probably put your wallet away. Do the injectors need cleaning? Replacing? You've mentioned everything else... |
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| chrismatheou | Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:53 pm Post #15 |
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Enthusiastic Bad Boy
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Bump! |
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| 190D 2.5 | Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:36 pm Post #16 |
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HughF - yes, it has the inline Bosch IP. Yes, plenty of blowby when warmed up. But the engine is always so smooth and quiet (for a diesel) that I've always taken that as a good sign of good engine condition (210k, 16k approx on wvo, twin-tank set-up). Ken (tronix) is helping me bypass the Smartveg stuff this weekend. You never know. It might help. Robert - I'd love to think it's an ancillary problem. I'm hoping a compression test can be organised shortly; currently I can't start the car at all; just churning over. Chrismatheou - 16k on decent quality (and well filtered) WVO. Edited by 190D 2.5, Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:36 pm.
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| kentronix | Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:04 pm Post #17 |
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I'm only really here for the Kitchens
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nice and confident then
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| 190D 2.5 | Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:15 pm Post #18 |
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Sorry Ken I've been up so many cul-de-sacs this year, not to mention loading the car on the back of a Flux Rescue tow-truck 4 times! Let me say publicly on this forum I have every confidence in Ken to help me sort this.
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| kentronix | Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:20 pm Post #19 |
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I'm only really here for the Kitchens
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thats the spirit mate
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| HughF | Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:09 am Post #20 |
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Part of things
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The plenty of blowby bit gives it away as far as I'm concerned. My old 617 would start on 3 cylinders and run like that for 20secs till other two picked up... The blowby was very very bad, even with thick oil. It used to drink the stuff too (not as bad as my M102 though which now uses it's oil in 3k miles - piece of crap)... It also sounded so sweet, was quiet (due to merc's clever precombustion chamber design primarily) and had so much power. The reason I got rid was it developed a rod knock and I didn't fancy it going bang on a long distance work trip, plus the brakes were failing (vac pump issues I think)... A compression test is your next port of call I think. |
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I've been up so many cul-de-sacs this year, not to mention loading the car on the back of a Flux Rescue tow-truck 4 times! Let me say publicly on this forum I have every confidence in Ken to help me sort this.
9:18 AM Jul 11