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| Cam Follower Travel | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:48 pm (1,027 Views) | |
| The Gorilla | Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:48 pm Post #1 |
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Hi, Does anybody know the distance travelled by the cam follower in the head, from the valve fully open to full closed please ? I do not have a spare head here at the moment they are both at the machine shop for work. I was looking to see if some weight can be removed out of the reciprocating mass of the valve Train by having the Cam follower skirts cut down, as well as already looking into lighter valve retainers, with of course lighter dual springs. Out of interest, has anybody ever weighed a 2.3 or 2.5 16v Exhaust Manifold [Header] !!! No wonder they are always cracking, its the bloody weight of themselves trying to rip the head studs out that must cause the cracking. No wonder the Evo's are quicker, their not hauling all that steel plate about. I have drilled numerous holes, thinned down the mounting lugs, and am going to have the main face plate skimmed down a few mill which should help the poor old exhaust studs a little, if nothing else. Regards, The Gorilla. |
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| feoffle | Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:55 pm Post #2 |
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If you're going for lightweight valvespring retainers, a word of warning regarding titanium ones. The quality can vary a great deal, and dependant upon the manufacturing and material quality, can cause big trouble. I have specially coated ones, but many being naked titanium, wear quite quickly against the steel valvesprings, which eventually lead to the retainer breaking, dropping a valve and then catastrophic engine failure. You may be aware already, but many people aren't, and are then amazed at 15,000miles into using them, having a destroyed motor. Sorry for going off-topic. |
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| matsalleh76 | Mon Aug 10, 2009 1:57 pm Post #3 |
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Matsalleh76. RIP. Gone But Never Forgotten.
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Gor, Unless something has changed, follower travel is determined by and can not exceed cam shaft valve lift. Most cam manufacturer's published specs indicate lift at a certain lash, so maximum follower travel would be published lift plus that lash.......although running that way is not to be recommended. Photos of your lightened exhaust manifold, please. Cheers, bobf. Edited by matsalleh76, Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:16 pm.
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| The Gorilla | Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:31 pm Post #4 |
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Hi, Feoffle- Thanks for that. I was looking into hard anodized alloy ones which I am told are a little better ? Matsalleh76- I was hoping that there was a +/- no matter what cam lift, if that makes sense, so that I could have the skirts cut down by 'X' and be able to swap cams without issues. 5.5mm of lift would be about max I guess. The Header is at the same shop as the heads, for its skimming of the steel face plate, and when back will post a pic. I was also looking into how best to ditch the heavy steel rings that locate the primaries to the plate. They are like boat anchors. Even the 'under' and 'over' supports onto the tubes from the face plate are 10mm steel !!! Regards, The Gorilla. |
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| RobertE | Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:42 pm Post #5 |
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Serial victim...
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Yes, I've just weighed my spare 2.3 manifold (albeit rather crudely) - 14 lbs - and that is after having the wretched thing skimmed. So, point taken! |
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| matsalleh76 | Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:02 pm Post #6 |
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Matsalleh76. RIP. Gone But Never Forgotten.
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Gor, How did you get the 5.5mm max lift number? Lift on the 2.3-16 and 2.5-16/EVO-1 are 9mm and 10mm respectively. The EVO-2 is 11mm (int) and 10mm (exh). CATCAMS produces 16V camshafts with up to 13.5mm lift and recommends using Merc followers and their own special valve springs & retainers with same. If you need springs and retainers I would go to them as a proven source-Vs-going to a un-proven although well meaning alternate solution. No disrespect to anyone's effort or ability intended but I would shy away from becoming part of the "trial" of a component as critical as valve retainers. bobf. Edited by matsalleh76, Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:55 am.
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| alogaparaloga | Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:45 pm Post #7 |
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crazy mind
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Hi Gorilla, I would advice you not to cut down the cam follower skirt at all. If you cut the skirt you are going to increase the wear in the bore, due to the misalignment that will be present during compression. Think about piston and cylinder wear. Piston with long skirt has more friction but shows less wear on the cylinder walls while short skirted pistons have less frictions but wear the cylinders quite fast. You could drill the follower skirt to remove material. this will reduce mass and friction. but to finish the job properly it is required to deburr the holes and polish the external surface of the skirt. Are you using roller cam assemblies, is this allowed for your car (maybe race regulations) If possible I would look for roller assembly modification. that save a respectable amount of friction. Good luck with it. |
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| The Gorilla | Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:28 pm Post #8 |
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Hi, Matsalleh76- The Dbilas 316 duration cams have 5.3 of lift at TDC, the only thing I do not like is that it makes the engine very peaky and Cammy. Great on the Track, absolute pig on the road in Traffic. Still investigating, although on the Valve retainers, Hard Alloy with Hard Anodizing has been used to great success. Alogaparaloga- Your point is well made, but I was never intending to have them machined off in a straight line, more like a piston skirt. Roller cam is like re-inventing the wheel for this engine, its std component make up is very good but I am trying to make small gains on the parts retained. Regards, The Gorilla. |
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| JM Motorsport | Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:29 pm Post #9 |
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Just a correction 990 and 991 engines both have 10mm, only the 992 (EVO 2) has 11mm (Intake). As for the manifolds, im not really with you, but both 990, 991 and 992 share the same exhaust manifolds, but perhaps i misinterpreted you? |
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| RobertE | Mon Aug 10, 2009 6:17 pm Post #10 |
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Serial victim...
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Just weighed the LHD exhaust manifold (2,3-16) and it was 10 lbs on the same measure. Q. a big difference! |
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| alogaparaloga | Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:48 pm Post #11 |
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crazy mind
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Consider that the followers are allowed to rotate in the bore in order to reduce wear, and to make wear more uniform. So you have to think about the skirt shape. Probably a design divided into 4 or more sections (legs) so some force balance is maintained. Additionally, I believe that this material is hardened through its depth so special tools will be required to give you the proper finish. It's a big job that needs to be well planed as you need repeatability of the process so as all the followers are identical. |
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| The Gorilla | Mon Aug 10, 2009 9:56 pm Post #12 |
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Hi, JM Motorsport - you LHD guys do not suffer the RHD Exhaust Manifold and all its additional steel bracing and the weight. The weight of them is quite astounding for what is supposed to be a tubular S/S Manifold. Anybody have a Pic and the weight of the Evo Header please ? While on the subject of the Evo, does anybody know the differences between the 2.5 Head and the the Evo Head please ? Is it just the porting or is there more ? Regards, The Gorilla. |
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| matsalleh76 | Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:07 am Post #13 |
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Matsalleh76. RIP. Gone But Never Forgotten.
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Gor, Don't take this wrong, no offense intended, but you can answer many of your own questions by researching EPC, WIS, and known internet sources/vendors. Try it, get knowledgeable, then post the questions that are not answered, we will suck our brains to answer them for you. Better still, get knowledgeable and post info that may not be known. Cheers, bobf. |
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| The Gorilla | Tue Aug 11, 2009 7:17 am Post #14 |
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Hi, Matsalleh76- Us Primates have much thicker skin than that. No offense meant or taken. I can understand how it might appear, but there is so much mis-information out there. You are much better asking people who know via their own experince and endavor than some so called 'facts' that are third hand prior to print. And for sure it get irritating when a ''newbie'' appears and starts asking lots of questions that some of you guys take for granted. The truth is that most of the best kept secerets are just that. With regards searching hours for information that some have at their fingertips is part of the reason for Forums such as this one is it not ? You yourself only the other day learnt of the Evo 11 reverting to a single chain due to discussion on aspects of other modification. You have to keep kicking the boundaries otherwise some of this stuff is so taken for granted it just dissappears. Regards, The Gorilla. |
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| JM Motorsport | Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:12 am Post #15 |
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My 2.5 header is lying in the garage i can weigh it and get some pics for you. As for the Evo head, there are differences even between the 1 and 2 heads, im at work now but i can scan a few pictures from the Service manuals for the EVO 1 and 2 when i get back home. |
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| Chris Martens | Tue Aug 11, 2009 8:38 am Post #16 |
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As bob wrote, maximum travel of the buckets is equal maximum lift of the cam (minus the lash). That is 9mm / 10mm / 11mm with Mercedes cams. The buckets are designed to rotate during operation... Bucket weight is small compared to the weight of the respective S14 parts: bucket (S14 / M102) 53g / 42g shim (S14 / M102) 25g / 4g EVO header is the same as for the standard header from 2.5-16 Race headers are totally different. Concerning the thickness of different primate's skin - I too would love to see results from your work. regards, Christian Edited by Chris Martens, Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:06 pm.
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| The Gorilla | Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:28 am Post #17 |
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Hi, JM Motorsport- thank you that would be really helpful. I was just trying to see if any other gains to the head could be made, simply, or if the Evo Head had any master elements to it. Chris Martens- my reason for looking to reduce a little weight from the buckets was that I was going to use lash caps which add more weight on. Its a primate thing, but you must first take weight away before you can add it. I am starting to think that 4 or 6 offset holes in the buckets might be the easiest solution. So as they rotate in situ, there is no common wear path that evolves. I have pictures, specs, etc of DTM Inconnel Header which Dennis kindly plotted out the stud diemensions. I have also reserved a DTM Inconnel Header but am thinking that opening up and matching the ports on the 2.5 16 v RHD Header might be an easier route, for the car being RHD. Will see. I do not think that a RHD 2.5 16v header will be the same as the Evo Header ?, as its RHD v LHD, and thus the flow pattern of the LHD Manifold in being superior to that of RHD car would surely not have been used ? I was of the belief that the RHD headers swept up and the LHD swept down, reason being the steering box ? The Guy who use to work at Longman Engineering, back in the good old days of Patrick Motorsport and Mini 1275 Gts winning the BTCC ala Richard Longman, and do a lot of their Head work, has undertaking porting on the Head mainly the exhaust ports, where he has opened up the ports and removed as much of the 'ridge' in the exhaust port tunnel for improved exhaust gas flow out, and he also wants to polish again the bottoms of the intake ports and leave the tops course, so as assist with the intake vortex. I will not be using Merc Cams, either Dbilas or Cat, and the Dbilas Rally spec cams look interesting, as I would guess more lower down Torque as well as lowering the engine power band which is good for a car that does see road use. Thanks for the S14 comparission weights. When I get a little further on then I will post up some pics. Regards, The Gorilla. |
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| feoffle | Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:30 am Post #18 |
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Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought rocker-arm valve train had a multiplication factor for valve lift. i.e. Cam lift * 1.xx = Valve lift. where 1.xx is the factor that the rocker arm applies on the valve |
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| Chris Martens | Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:09 pm Post #19 |
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Danny, >Chris Martens- my reason for looking to reduce a little >weight from the buckets was that I was going to use >lash caps which add more weight on. why would I do that? >I do not think that a RHD 2.5 16v header will be the >same as the Evo Header ? Sorry, my fault, the EVO header is the same as of the 2.5-16 LHD (continental version )I have corrected my above posting. Dbilas is not known for his long lasting high quality cams in Germany... Stick with the Cat. regards, Christian |
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| Chris Martens | Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:12 pm Post #20 |
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there are no rocker arms in these Cosworth heads, just the cam lobe and the bucket. Therefore lobe hight is equal bucket travel. regards, Christian |
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| JM Motorsport | Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:14 pm Post #21 |
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Hello Christian are the Dbilas cams really that bad? I have always thought it was the other way around? |
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| feoffle | Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:40 pm Post #22 |
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Werd. |
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| The Gorilla | Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:57 pm Post #23 |
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Hi, Guys this was my very point earlier on about kicking down the boundaries. I was always lead to believe by 'others' and what had been written on the Net etc, that the Dbilas cams were harder than Cat ? I know Cat have changed their material specs etc. I have no personal experince of either, but it would be nice to know what the general concensus is and why ? Chris Martens- the higher up the rev band you go for prolonged periods you increase the chance of the valve stems 'mushrooming'' hence lash caps will help assist with this. I am no Race Engineer but I have listened to what some Race Engineers say, its the attention to the small details that are often overlooked that results in the main components suffering increased fatigue and failure. If you can drill a few holes or shave some weight of something, broadly speaking, which does not effect its performance and reduces weight and stress, then why not ? For sure, my efforts may well not make any significant gains, but if I do not try I am never going to know. Primates thrive by being outside the box, not in it. Regards, The Gorilla. |
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| RobertE | Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:16 pm Post #24 |
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I understood that the materials used by both CatCams and Dbilas was a similar grade of chilled iron but I read a winge on another forum that the latter were not all they were cracked up to be due to excessive wear. This was on a diesel forum, I should say, so we're probably looking at a different grade of metal altogether; I imagine a carbon steel. |
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| jeremy | Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:22 pm Post #25 |
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Too Far Gone To Help
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I wish I could enjoy this thread , It is so way above my head, Which ever way its read, My brain hurts, I'm off to bed . Jeremy. 56 1/2 years old. |
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| Neil | Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:35 pm Post #26 |
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Roffle at Jezza, I feel the same
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| Chris Martens | Tue Aug 11, 2009 2:24 pm Post #27 |
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I don't have personal experience neither with Dbilas nor CatCam. But as the Gorilla said, others have told me... Just ask Atec Motoren or Thorsten Stadler what they recommend or use. cams... the whole topic is a lot more than max. lift and a hardend surface. Jesper "Racing" wrote a lot on this, just dig in the old threads. Danny, I thought lash buckets are the same as hydraulic lifters? Seems to be wrong. ok. Do you really need some kind of protection glove at the valve stem? I've never heard of this. Is this often used in the bimmer world? You're absolutely right with this 'attention to small details' but on the other hand, you do have a budget I suppose? ![]() To reduce weight AND stress by 'drilling a few holes' should be discussed with that named race engineer. regards, Christian |
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| The Gorilla | Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:14 pm Post #28 |
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Hi, RobertE- I think the problem with the Cam shafts is that people have preffered preferences and everything else is 'no good' or 'not up to it' no matter what. Trying to obtain an impartial view on something now days is almost impossible. Chris Martens- Budget, ha ha, more like financial stress. I have done a lot of digging on the Cams hence the questions and probing about them, 'Racing' implied on more than a couple of occassions that Dbilas was good, hard German Metal, after somebody had suggested that Cat were on the soft side, and then I guy I know, just a little, has run the Cat Cams in his Honda S2000 Track Car, and swears by them ? It was also suggested to me that within Cat Cams there is a Racing Camshaft department offering differing lifts profiles and duration etc. All I will say is, metal hardness aside, the duration on some of the Cat Cams is interesting. Regards, The Gorilla. |
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| feoffle | Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:16 am Post #29 |
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Who are "Cat cams" exactly? I've never before heard of people changing out cams in an S2000, even from the top tuning houses in Japan, as it's mostly considered a waste of time. I'd be interested to hear more on the subject. But one thing people fail to realise with cams, they're not a mod where you can just throw them in and expect to make power. They're very dependant on supporting mods, and very much work as a a part of a 'system'. Some people will make crap power with the exact same set of cams another person made 15whp+ more with. "One mans junk is another mans treasure." Compression ratio, cam timing/duration/lift/valve overlap, exhaust manifold design, exhaust diameter, throttle body diameter. ALL of these have to be taken into account as one. |
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| The Gorilla | Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:35 am Post #30 |
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Hi, Feoffle- www.catcams.be The Guy with the S2000 said that the Cat Cams gave more mid grunt but no more real power. I think some of the Escort Mk 1/2 Rally Guys who were running S2000 Engines also had some better mid band power from the Cat Cams. Rule Changes for 2010 means no more S2000 in Ford Escorts. Regards, The Gorilla. |
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| feoffle | Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:36 am Post #31 |
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Ah ok. I'm sure the Primary and Secondary lobes were made more aggressive to improve mid-range, possibly leaving the Mid alone. On a road car this isn't really feasible, as it has penalties with fuel economy under normal driving conditions and a poor idle. Not an issue on race-only engines. |
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