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| Heavier Rear Anti-Roll Bar ? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Fri Nov 6, 2009 4:02 pm (1,231 Views) | |
| matsalleh76 | Fri Nov 6, 2009 4:02 pm Post #1 |
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Matsalleh76. RIP. Gone But Never Forgotten.
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This has also been posted on the 190 Rev site and I am re-posting it here to determine if there is any interest in the possibility of producing a rear ARB slightly heavier than the 18mm Evo rear bar, say, 20 or 21mm? The reason for asking is two fold: Firstly, a number of people have fitted heavier front bars flattening the cornering stance but greatly increasing understeer. A 28mm 500e or 26mm 400e bar on the front with the standard 13mm or 16mm rear bar will flatten cornering but spoil the car's inherent balanced handling: it plows through corners. Fitting an 18mm rear EVO bar will bring the balance back closer to what it should be but with a heavy front bar the car will still understeer more than it should. Playing with tire pressures and adjustable camber plates/arms front & rear helps but doesn't cure the imbalance. Secondly, I have a particular front end weight bias problem and a personal preference (others may have a different preference) on vehicle handling/balance. Here are the whys & reasons: My 16V with the supercharger, air/water intercooler, associated pumps and fans, air con, oil coolers, etc. is heavier up-front than a normal 16V. This accentuates the normally acceptable minor 16v understeer. I would like bring it back into better balance with a heavier rear bar but the 18mm EVO bar presently installed is the heaviest bar available. The car is fitted with cut 500sl front & rear springs and in addition I want to further flatten cornering a bit. A 500e 28mm front bar did that very well but the increased understeer was unacceptable. The 500e bar was removed and the 23mm 16V front bar re-installed. A heavier rear bar makes sense as it will 1) compensate for the heavy front end induced understeer and 2) allow the re-installation of the 500e front bar to capture the flatter cornering it produced. Target Summery: Fit a stiffer (20 or 21 or 22mm) rear bar with the 500e front bar giving more neutral flat handling and eliminating most of the current excess understeer......without making the car tail happy. Am I totally wrong on this or does it make sense? If it makes sense what are the possibilities of interesting a UK after-market fabricator in bending and heat treating a small run of four or five bars? The UK has more small custom race component fabricators then any other country and there is surely some small fabricator who would be interested. If so, I would be their first customer. Comments please. Regards, bobf |
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| jeremy | Fri Nov 6, 2009 4:12 pm Post #2 |
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Too Far Gone To Help
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Bob , wont an exhaust place be able to bend one for you ? Then you can get it tempered?? Jeremy |
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| JM Motorsport | Fri Nov 6, 2009 4:58 pm Post #3 |
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More than part of things
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You might wanna speak to Sellhom in Sweden, well known company here in sweden and can build you custom roll bars. http://www.sellholm.se/ its in swedish but send them an email, the know english pretty good. |
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| RobertE | Fri Nov 6, 2009 5:49 pm Post #4 |
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Serial victim...
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What you say makes perfect sense, Bob. Front/rear balance is surely relative, so if you keep the front/rear proportions the same as OE, then the rigidity of the front bar should dictate the rigidity of the rear one (same ratio) at which point the package surely becomes an absolute, which you either like or you don't. I am just about to start arxing around with something similar, so perhaps we can compare notes... |
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| mazza | Fri Nov 6, 2009 6:10 pm Post #5 |
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More than part of things
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Hi folks Hope everyone is doing ok I dont know if its possible but...could we start weighing items like the ARB'S and making notes of the weights..I am now making notes of the weights on pretty much everything that is attached to the 2.3-16.m As an example, the weight of the bracket that secures the power steering pump and air con, weighs over 6 kgs..I will be getting a better scale so the weights can be more accurate. ARB'S were next on my list of things to do...so this is perfect timing. cheers mazza |
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| RobertE | Fri Nov 6, 2009 6:12 pm Post #6 |
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Serial victim...
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I'll let ye know - I'm replacing mine next week... |
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| JM Motorsport | Fri Nov 6, 2009 7:30 pm Post #7 |
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More than part of things
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i got my rear 16v and front arb in the garage, also got a e500 i can weigh next week |
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| matsalleh76 | Sat Nov 7, 2009 4:28 am Post #8 |
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Matsalleh76. RIP. Gone But Never Forgotten.
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This info may to useful to others looking at playing with ARB's: Assuming that the metalergy is the same, ARB bar stiffness increases as the fourth power of the diameter. For example, you have an ARB with a diameter of 22mm and are considering changing it for one which is 26mm in diameter. The original bar: (22x22x22x22) has a stiffness factor of 234,256 units. The second bar: (26X26X26X26) works out to 456,976 units. Divide one by the other: the second bar’s stiffness is almost twice (1.95 times) as high, even though it’s only 4mm thicker. Small changes in diameter make for large changes in stiffness. Cheers, bobf |
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| jeremy | Sat Nov 7, 2009 8:41 am Post #9 |
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Too Far Gone To Help
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Bob , I woke up thinking of your problem this morning , and I do think that 500SL springs are not made for the kind of stiffness you want , I drove a 500SL when they were new ( not mine ) and they rolled a lot when cornered hard . Now I can see that you have cut the springs , but the weight of the W201 is so much less than the W129 . Have you considered an H & R Nordschleife kit ? together with an evo II / 300 / 400 front arb , will make your car cosiderably stiffer together with the other upgrades you have already made . It is of course , virtually a track-only set-up . Jeremy Edited by jeremy, Sat Nov 7, 2009 8:44 am.
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| matsalleh76 | Sat Nov 7, 2009 1:50 pm Post #10 |
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Matsalleh76. RIP. Gone But Never Forgotten.
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J, Thanks for the early morning thought..........the 500sl was a heavy old barge so to prevent sea sickness they fitted it with the very heavy springs but it still wallowed. 500sl springs have the largest wire diameter and the highest rate of any Merc spring that will fit a 201. Cutting them to get a decent ride height (61cm from road to the underlip of the 16V fender lip measured at wheel center), increases their stiffness. They are stiff but livable. I have tried sport H&R, Eibach and some Dutch sport springs (I forget the name) and they were all not what I wanted. Cut 500sl springs are the best I have found for the 201. Of course all of this is very much my personal preference. Others may like a different set-up and vehicle feel. I want to compensate for the increased front end weight induced understeer by playing with rear bars, the 18mm EVO bar is the heaviest avail., so will have a 20 or 21mm bar made somewhere. Regards, bobf. |
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| jeremy | Sat Nov 7, 2009 2:10 pm Post #11 |
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Too Far Gone To Help
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Hi Bob , It is not necessarily the spring wire thickness that gives it's stiffness , there are other considerations too , such as the amount of tempering . Older springs lose their tempering after time and give much more body lean , and would not be practical for you , I am sure . I see that you have tried "Sport H & R" springs , these are definately not hard enough for you as they are primarily aimed at folks who do "Fast Road" or occasional track-days , who do not want to lose the day-to-day practicality of their car . H & R do a "Nordschleife" spring that is supposed to rattle your teeth on the road , but provides much greater stiffness and much less lean on the track . I think orangetuning.de supply them . Are your tyres wearing out on the edges too , like mine ?? Jeremy Edited by jeremy, Sat Nov 7, 2009 2:17 pm.
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| sportline_stu | Sat Nov 7, 2009 3:24 pm Post #12 |
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More than part of things
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Even playing with the numbers to estimate the potential change in the rating of the bar until you fit the arb and drive the car its all going to depend on the feel of the car with the given modifications you already have. Lovely to experiment though! Stu |
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