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| Curious does a 124 diff fit a 201? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Thu May 6, 2010 11:26 am (5,409 Views) | |
| Benzsc1 | Thu May 6, 2010 11:26 am Post #1 |
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Createyourownexit.com
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Right as some of you know I am embraking on turning my current almost standard 2.6 in to a 3.0-24 but I am curious to know If the diff out of the W124 would fit the 190E I am presuming it will???? The diff in the 2.6 currently is a little worn so I guess it would be a reletively chep fix of the 124 diff does slot in...... |
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| matsalleh76 | Thu May 6, 2010 12:20 pm Post #2 |
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Matsalleh76. RIP. Gone But Never Forgotten.
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Here is a link to a write up we did a few years ago on mixing & matching 201 and 124 diffs. It should answer most of your questions. http://cid-ef2773a94ea15af8.office.live.com/view.aspx/.Public/ASD%20Differential%20swap.doc Regards, bobf (link up dated: Feb 10, 2011) Edited by matsalleh76, Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:38 am.
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| MadMike | Thu May 6, 2010 12:34 pm Post #3 |
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Therapy Needed
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Tried the link but it wont open. My security system says that its not safe to open. |
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| chrismatheou | Thu May 6, 2010 12:36 pm Post #4 |
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Enthusiastic Bad Boy
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Works for me, that doc is spot on.
Edited by chrismatheou, Thu May 6, 2010 12:36 pm.
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| Benzsc1 | Thu May 6, 2010 1:25 pm Post #5 |
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Createyourownexit.com
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I cant open it either?? |
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| jeremy | Thu May 6, 2010 6:54 pm Post #6 |
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Too Far Gone To Help
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Can you copy and paste it onto here Chris ? Jeremy |
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| chrismatheou | Thu May 6, 2010 7:01 pm Post #7 |
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Enthusiastic Bad Boy
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Installing an ASD Differential in a non-ASD car and set up for fully locking manual operation: A 201 or 124 ASD diff has an inherent ~ 25-30% LSD effect before the hydraulics kick in, i.e. the ASD clutch pack, etc. has a built in LSD effect. An ASD diff along with its prop and half shafts installed in a non-ASD 201 or 124 will give a limited LSD effect. It can however be set-up using a manually actuated hydraulic system to give full lock-up when desired. General information: ---The standard 201 open differential is the smallest bodied Mercedes differential. The diff, the rear section of the prop shaft, and half shafts were only used on open diff 190’s. There was a change in the drive flange bolt circle somewhere along the line so, although the differential will bolt into the sub-frame, the half shafts may or may not mate to the diff drive flanges. If you source a replacement open diff make sure the existing half shafts will bolt up or source the replacement complete with half shafts. ---The 201 (16V) LSD uses a larger 124 differential body. Because of the longer nose on the diff, the rear prop shaft section of a 16V LSD is ~25mm shorter than the open diff. prop shaft. 16V LSD half shafts are shorter than open diff half shafts and were only used on LSD equipped 190’s. If you source a 16V LSD diff for installation in a non-LSD 190 make sure you get the prop shaft rear section and the half shafts. 16V LSD available ratios: 3.07 or 3.27. ---ASD differentials used on both the 201 and the 124 are identical. They use the same differential body and rear prop shaft section as the 16V LSD but due to the increased width of the ASD differential drive flange to drive flange, ASD half shafts are shorter than 16V half shafts and are unique to ASD equipped 190’s. --- 201 & 124 half shafts ASD (or LSD) will not interchange due to the 124’s wider track; ie the 124 half shafts are longer. ---ASD ratio range: 2.65, 2.82, 2.87, 3.07, 3.27, 3.29 Differential drive flange to drive flange measurements: 201 open diff: 22.5cm 201 (16V) LSD: 24cm 201 ASD : 28.5cm 124 open diff: 24cm 124 ASD : 28.5cm Easy Swaps: Any 201 open diff into a non-LSD/ASD201 = YES 16V LSD w/half shafts/rear prop shaft into any 201 = YES 201 ASD w/half shafts/rear prop shaft into any 201 = YES 124 open diff into a 16V after changing rear cover = YES 201 (16V) LSD into a 124 using 124 half shafts = YES Not So Easy Swap: 124 ASD into any 201 = YES, if you can find a set of 201 ASD half shafts and rear prop shaft section. If not, it will involve machine work. 201 ASD differential. Note: 1) the hydraulic hard line running across the top of the casing, 2) the four bolt rear cover, 3)the small tag at 5 o’clock, and 4)the “pie plate” left drive flange. Same differential showing the “pie plate” on one drive flange and the hydraulic line to the ASD actuator pistons. The pistons are connected by the hard line across the top. There is a hydraulic bleed screw on the other side. I have never found the reason why some differentials have two pie plates, some only one, and some none. If anyone knows the reason please let me know. 124 ASD differential. Note 1) the hydraulic hard line, 2) the two bolt end cover, 3) no “pie plates”. The small lube tag at 5 o’clock has been painted over but is there. Swapping an ASD diff into a non-ASD car: 201 into 201: A 201 ASD diff, rear prop shaft section and half shafts will bolt right into a non-ASD 201. I suppose it is possible to transfer the entire ASD system (ECU,sensors, pump, piping, etc, etc) from a donor car but the work involved makes the job a practical impossibility. A straight ASD differential swap without the rest of the ASD system will yield partial LSD action and a generally more robust differential. For more LSD action read on….. 124 into 201: This is a bit more complicated. A 124 ASD diff will bolt into a 201 after: 1) changing the 124 two bolt rear cover plate for a 190 four bolt rear cover plate (they are interchangeable). 2) source a 190 LSD rear prop shaft section. 3) source a set of 201 ASD haft shafts with the same drive bolt pattern as the 124 diff to be installed. We were not able to locate a set of 201 ASD half shafts and because the half shafts we could locate were too long for the narrower 201 rear track we shortened the half shafts. In case anyone is interested here is how they were shortened: Disassemble the half shafts, cut the shafts in a lathe to the correct length (cut 52mm from the middle of the shaft), make a slightly undersized 7.5cm long sleeve, taper the ends of the shaft for welding, heat and slip the sleeve onto one half of the cut shaft, weld the cut shaft together in a lathe, machine the welds to the shaft diameter, true the shaft straight, then heat the sleeve and bang it on over the weld and weld the sleeve to the shafts. It sounds like a lot of work but it was an easy two hour job at a cooperative machine shop. Manual Hydraulic System: The manual system is basically a hydraulic hand pump actuating the ASD clutch pistons. There is a check valve in the pump line to hold pressure locking the diff, and a solenoid valve to bleed off pressure to un-lock the diff. The pump is an eBay go-kart brake master cylinder with integral reservoir. The pump was fitted with a 20cm handle and mounted on a bracket next to the driver’s seat. The pump has two outlets. The unused outlet was plugged off. On the underside of the car below the driver’s seat: a junk yard 1/8” four way brake “cross” fitting with: 1) a 1/8" in-line 2000psi (ex-eBay) ball check valve, 2) a brake pressure switch, and 3) a 12v solenoid with a return line to bleed pressure back to the pump reservoir. The solenoid is operated by a push button under the dash. The brake pressure switch is connected to an LED on the dash: the LED lights when the system is pressurized. The check valve, pressure switch, and solenoid mounted on a small 1/8” 4-way block, under the car, below the driver's seat. The line top left is the pressure line from the pump feeding into the 4 way block through the check valve. On the left is the brake pressure switch. On the bottom, the copper hard line back to the diff. The solenoid & the plastic fluid return line are on the right. The pump is mounted on a piece of 3” x 1” alum angle bolted to the floor next to the driver’s seat. Four pulls on the lever locks the differential. The plastic line is the fluid return line from the solenoid. The pressure line is just visible on the lower right side of the pump. The whole system cost ~$75. The biggest expense was the $30 go-kart master cylinder. The rest was hardware, some 5mm copper hard line and fittings, and a $5 the brake switch. The 12V solenoid if bought new will run about $25 from a pneumatic supplier. Once all the components were in hand the assembly and installation took about three hours. The ASD differential is a 3.07 from a 124 4-Matic wagon which keeps the original speedometer and ABS system sane. We use Citroen hydraulic fluid. Comments or Questions welcome: HYPERLINK "mailto:bobf@pd.jaring.my"bobf@pd.jaring.my Side Note: There was an excellent write up posted recently on the 190Rev Forum on rebuilding an ASD differential. (July 2008) |
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| matsalleh76 | Fri May 7, 2010 3:19 am Post #8 |
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Matsalleh76. RIP. Gone But Never Forgotten.
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I can not understand the download problems some of you are having. The file is a MSWord file. I have no problem but it does take a few minutes to down load. Most curious. Blame it on the party you didn't vote for. If anyone really wants it send me a PM with an email address and I will forward it to you directly as an attachment. Regards, bobf |
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| matsalleh76 | Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:40 am Post #9 |
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Matsalleh76. RIP. Gone But Never Forgotten.
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Old bad link updated & now working. bobf |
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| The Gorilla | Sat Mar 5, 2011 5:24 pm Post #10 |
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Part of things
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Hi, It says in the Info that Any 124 Open Diff will fit a 16v. This is incorrect. I have a W124 Open Diff here which has 210mm CW/p so the above infor needs updating, as there is no way this would ever fit a 16v. Regards, The Gorilla. |
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| The Gorilla | Sat Mar 5, 2011 5:44 pm Post #11 |
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Part of things
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Hi, This may also assist- 1) The factory ASD system is a normal clutch-type limited-slip diff, PLUS an extra hydraulic function that activates to provide 100% lock when wheelspin is detected under 19mph. Above 19mph, it's a plain LSD, with approx 35% lock from the clutch pack. 2) Yes, the 190E-16 diff is a normal limited-slip (not ASD, no hydraulics). However it's a 3.27 gear ratio (w/ 185mm gears), which is crazy low for a 124. You could swap this in to a 124, but would need a matching speedo from a 124 with 3.27 gears. 3) The 4Matics have the ASD setup in the rear (LSD plus hydraulics). Yes this can swap over to a standard 124, but without the hydraulic lock function. 4) The limited-slip differential (the carrier, i.e. the part with the clutch pack, that the ring gear bolts to) is different depending on the gear ratio. So you can't take the LSD from a 190E-16 (which has 3.27 gears) and put it into a normal 124 diff with 2.65 or 2.87 gears, the spacing is different, the backlash will never be within spec. You MUST use an LSD unit that matches the proper gearset. The LSD unit from the 3.27 gears also works for 3.07, but only those two ratios. 5) You can buy a brand-new LSD unit from the Mercedes dealer (about $1150 wholesale) and pay a rear-end shop to install it for you. Not cheap, but it's new stuff, with new clutches. If you get a used unit from the salvage yard, it will need several hundred $$$'s worth of rebuilding. 6) Remember that all 124's have 185mm diffs, except the M104 and M119 engined models... those have 210mm diffs. The LSD unit for the 210mm diff is actually cheaper, about $800 wholesale, for the E320/500E/E500 with 2.65 or 2.82 gears. 7) Yes, I know what I'm talking about. No, I'm not insane. I built a limited-slip diff for my 1987 300D last year, keeping the stock 2.65 gears. It works GREAT. An Excel spreadsheet with details on the various years, models, ratios, part numbers, etc is posted on my website at this link. If you don't have Excel, a PDF version is here. Photos of my LSD rebuild & installation are at this link. Confirms that M104[6 Pot] and M119 [V8] are 210mm CW/p Regards, The Gorilla. |
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| tjts1 | Sun Mar 6, 2011 12:02 am Post #12 |
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Part of things
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This is some excellent info. Thanks for posting it. |
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| Mohammad | Sun Mar 6, 2011 6:07 pm Post #13 |
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weneakhborz
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excellent write up. |
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