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Supercharger
Topic Started: Sat May 8, 2010 3:23 am (2,156 Views)
stwat
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I have the offer of a supercharger and all associated bits from a C class 230K.

My question is, how hard would it be to fit it to my 2.3-16? What is involved?

I know it aint going to be straight forward but i just need to have some sort of idea as to exactly what i would be letting myself in for should i take this on.

Thanks,

Stu
Edited by stwat, Sat May 8, 2010 3:48 am.
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kentronix
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I'm only really here for the Kitchens

pm taint, he will have a good idea on specifics.


On the normal 4cyl you can bolt it up relatively easily to the aircon pump mount, in place of the aircon (does the 16v have aircon). It needs a bracket made up.

On my 2.6 it turns out the ARB gets in the way so it has to be mounted slightly differently, other side under the exhaust manifold. The bracket needs making up. I have no idea on the 16v but this is the main problem.

On top of that you need all the air routing, a trigger to turn it on and off (topgun style red switch or a position sensor on the pedal). And of course the airbox itself from the donor which it sounds like you have.

Then a new belt to fit and ensure the pulley on the charger is suitable and its just bits and bobs to sort out I think.... although it is late :)
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stwat
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I see. Interesting. So no extra brain needed for fueling etc? I expect more fuel will be needed when the charger kicks in.
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kentronix
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I'm only really here for the Kitchens

It depends on the pressure but I would imagine if the pulley is right you can find a balance where you get an extra 30-40hp but the injectors can still cope. In my case I dont get a huge boost but what I do get is spread nicely across the range without major lag before it is useable.

With this setup the internals and fuelling should cope fine. If you wanted to go further you could of course do these as well but with low boost it shouldnt be needed.

I am not really an expect, only have knowledge on my own planed set up.
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stwat
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Im just looking at it from a turbo point of view. Maybe i shouldnt be i dont know. But underfuling when on boost(turbo) can cause serious engine damage from overheating. Blown valves and pistons etc. Then there is the need to upgrade the headgasket to cope with the extra pressure.

But that's probably only when you are really ramping up the BHP like on my old 944 Turbo so maybe that doesn't matter as much in the case of simply fitting the standard charger. ^o)

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kentronix
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I'm only really here for the Kitchens

Totally depends on the boost, I wouldnt go much about a 30-40 gain without considering what else may be effected.

An intercooler may get a few more without needing to change other bits but thats the step I plan to look into when my charger isnt giving me enough :)
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stwat
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This set up already has an intercooler B)

Im still only in the, will i or wont i bother stage at the moment. But to be offered all the bits free of charge certainly makes me wonder a bit :)
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cossie connoisseur
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there can be only one ;-)
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
welllllllllll it can be done and been something ive always wated to do, if you decide to do it then great however if you decide not to and the bits end up for sale on here pm me ;)
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JFreak
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Fully do it!

I haven't done it yet but it's really simple form what I've seen and heard, and I would if i was offered the parts!

I'm not entirely sure how the air/fuel mixture is metered in a mercedes but in the jappas I play with it's all controlled by the MAF sensor, so as long a the MAF is behind the blower it should adjust itself accordingly. I think on the Ke-Jetronic it's controlled by that valve flap thing (forgot the name), so extra air should = extra fuel accordingly. Like kentronix says though that would only be for standard upgrades - for performance then you definitely need the modified manifolds, larger exhaust and injectors, valve and head upgrades, strengthened con rods and basically rebuild it depending how far you want to take it!

So charge it up and post us some pics and specs when you're done!
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alogaparaloga
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Nice to here that you go on the modified world.
I cannot help you on the fuel adjustment side of the KE-Jet as I know only a tiny bit about that.

First things first. INSTALLATION
-Search the Eaton website for installation diagrams just to make sure the orientation will be within spec.
You need this in order to ensure lubrication in the gears is fine.
-Decide the location of the supercharger.
-Work out the plumbing for Air in and Out. Make sure you avoid tight bends. and find the best location for the intercooler.
- Check what pulley ratio it was running on the donor car so as you don't spin it to the extremes when on your engine ( matter of supercharger life and engine life).
-Work out the belt routing and source any components if required.

FUELLING AND SPARK.
Check with gurus here for the jetronic options or go the EFI route
I wouldn't worry about engine internals if you can control precisely ignition and AFR.

Exhaust.
I would leave the headers to their original state and work would start from the downpipes.
You need high gas velocity for good torque output.

Edited by alogaparaloga, Sat May 8, 2010 12:20 pm.
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Will
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Isn't there a member on here with a S/C'd 2.3/2.5-16 - Rotrex setup. I think he's from one of the European MB sites?

The M111 230K setup doesn't run an awful lot of boost. But the fueling setup and S/C control is quite a lot more advanced on the donor car. Not sure how old Alfie's 230K was but most of the Kompressor W202s have an electronic clutch for the charger that engages around 1500RPM - basically the pulley is always running as it's off the main V-belt but the clutch prevents the charger from running when sitting in traffic etc. There's also a bypass valve in the airbox that diverts airflow. Standard with a small intercooler and much more accurate hot-wire mass-airflow sensor to control fuelling etc.

Worth noting that the donor car (C230 Kompressor) is also a 2.3 litre, 16 valve, DOHC MB engine - and even with the supercharger it doesn't make 200bhp! Shows how good the headwork and the exhaust setup on the 2.3-16 is. I'd assume about an extra 40-50bhp would be available, but with a good dose of low down torque. If you're going down the non-original tuning route I guess it'd also be time to move away from the original K-jet and look at installing EFI.

An EFI'd, supercharged 2.3-16 (in good health) should be comfortable at around 250bhp or maybe a bit more, and would sound/drive very nicely I reckon. Not a totally pointless excercise if done properly and you're off to a good start with a FOC donor for the parts! B)

Go for it Stu if you've got the time/inclination ;)

Will
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JustbeCoz
Part of things
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Plenty of things to consider if you want to add the charger. mounting it to the engine with a custom plate. Belt tensioner issues so you can get more of the drive pulley in contact with the belt. routing the air system with a remote filter and plumbing either an air/air or air/water intercooler. Gearing belt and pulley ratios to avoid overspeeding/overboost. The existing K-Jet would be almost impossible to get to reliably provide 25% more fuel as it wasn't ever intended to. Once the afm plate deflects fully thats it unless you are going to mod the internals of the metering unit. You would probably get some extra power at the expense of an unreliable and thirsty system.
IMHO I would opt for an efi set up with map sensor and o2 sensor in order to fuel and tune the thing reliably. I've been toying with the idea of the rotrex type centrifugal charger with efi and air/air in the gap at the front of the existing rad on my 2.5-16 but I was hoping someone else might have some experience to share.
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jeremy
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Too Far Gone To Help
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Matsalleh76 is the man with the Rotrex
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stwat
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Thanks for the info chaps :)

I removed the charger and associated bits and pieces today. Even though the car had done over 190,000 miles, the charger is in superb condition with no play whatsoever on the rotors. To be honest i'm amazed at the overall condition of the car mechanically. Just goes to show what a well maintained full dealer service history with no expense spared means.

Its just a shame about the rust. Oh and the fact that he stuffed the car into a road sign!!
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Johnboy Mac
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I reckon as mentioned EFI first and then the S/charger. Efi is a good mod regardless and it would allow you to get the maximum benefit from the S/C with no worries about the all important fueling with forced induction engine. Bear in mind you'll have some limitations I'd presume due to the 16V's standard compression ratio.
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bolide
Bolide
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If the donor engine doesn't produce 200 bhp then I'd think it's unlikely the s/c will deliver enough air to get to 250 bhp

If you have a donor engine why not have the injectors & injection system as well?

Nick Froome
www.w124.co.uk
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Will
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I think it'd be too much work (near-impossible!) to get the donor car's ECU/fuelling system fitted to the 2.3-16. I think Alfie's C230K is a facelift model which will have the electronic ignition key with the DAS etc.

I think the standard output of the 230K was fairly reserved and in a lowish state of tune considering the spec of the car and the technical design. Has been said before that it was due to some German tax regs or something like that - not to mention stealing the thunder of the C280 (which was almost identical in terms of power output).

Tuning these engines (the M111 230K) is quite common in the US and Europe, and the standard charger is quite capable of delivering a bit more air than standard by means of modifying the pulley arrangement (in order to spin the S/C quicker at any given engine RPM).

Will
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matsalleh76
Matsalleh76. RIP. Gone But Never Forgotten.
[ *  * ]
Here is a link to the Rotrex Supercharger installation we did on a 2.3-16. To date, absolutely trouble free, very civilized and fast.

http://www.snapdrive.net/files/465230/ROTREX%20revised%20write%20up5.doc


Regards,
bobf
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stwat
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Many thanks, bobf.

I remember that the first time you posted it. Il have another read through it :)


Stu
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stwat
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Im now not going to bother with this any more as i'm more than happy with the car as it is B) Yeterdays amazing blast confirmed what an superb car this is standard. I dont want to complicate things and make the car any less reliable.

Nick, you have PM mate :)
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kentronix
Sat May 8, 2010 3:40 am
pm taint, he will have a good idea on specifics.
Thats the single funniest thing I've seen all night! The same man who use a 2.0L metering head and fueling on a 16v conversion, the same man who fails to understand the basic operation of a spring and shock setup?! And you reckon he can give good advice on supercharging?! :lol:

With custom management, and a rotrex, a 16v would respond to supercharging very well. Don't bother trying to make the 230 stuff work, would be a waste of time.
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kentronix
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I'm only really here for the Kitchens

philj
Wed May 19, 2010 12:25 am
And you reckon he can give good advice on supercharging?! :lol:
yes very much so.
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Deleted User
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lmao lmao Ok, I wonder what he'll say?

Something like...

"Ya man, just wood screw the bastaard on there and point its outlet thing near where the air usually goes in!" B)
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kentronix
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I'm only really here for the Kitchens

Take your hate elsewhere phil, stu wanted advice and I know taint has experience of chargers from this range going on to 190s.

I advised he drops him a PM, nothing that should get you upset.
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Deleted User
Deleted User

:lol: Well what do you expect, a member of the Admin team is recommending a blatant thief/lier for work/advice. Its ridiculous! The guy raped a members car and ethusiasm, yet you are still referring to him as some sort of tuning god? I mean he blatantly stole a whole bunch of parts fro Moomies car, failed to put together many cars, took 19 months to make a mess of Jeremy's.

I'm not upset, I'm just shocked at how the Admin are treating the guy!
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kentronix
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I'm only really here for the Kitchens

I recommended he PM'd him, thats all.
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cossie connoisseur
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there can be only one ;-)
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
im buying this off stu and sticking it on my manual with an efi system. Should be fun....but provide a few headaches lol
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Johnboy Mac
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More than part of things
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cossie connoisseur
Wed May 19, 2010 3:19 pm
im buying this off stu and sticking it on my manual with an efi system. Should be fun....but provide a few headaches lol
Brilliant, Nick. Looking forward to that.
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Karl_h
Newbie
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Kentronix, I see your planning a supercharger conversion on your 3.0ltr and from what I have read you appear to be keeping K-Jet. I have been spending time looking in to a similar conversion on my 2.6. I am confident I can do the basic install. However as I am sure you have found out also, the stumbling block is the fueling. I have seen several posts on other forums that state with a low boost application such as Eaton M45 then the K-Jet can be tuned to provide the required fuel, however there is never anything to back this up, but I have to admit I think this is the first time when switching to EFI has been so strongly advocated rather than just recommened as on other sites.
I'd be very interested in any information you have.

TIA

Karl
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kentronix
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I'm only really here for the Kitchens

I dont really have any to be honest karl, just peoples word that it should be ok for low boost. I would be happy to share any info as and when I get it, which will be based on my experience as its fitted.
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Karl_h
Newbie
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That sounds great!
Just out of interest is there a guide available to the setting up of the fuel system and what can and can't be adjusted, that you may have come across? All the talk of EFA baffles me a bit!? If I had a good understanding of that then I think I could pretty much crack on!
Are you looking at M45 chargers or slightly bigger?

Karl
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kentronix
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I'm only really here for the Kitchens

Slightly bigger I think, I think its a 62, not 100% sure though I havent looked at it recently.
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HOTFUZZ
Part of things
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kentronix
Sat May 8, 2010 3:40 am
pm taint, he will have a good idea on specifics.


On the normal 4cyl you can bolt it up relatively easily to the aircon pump mount, in place of the aircon (does the 16v have aircon). It needs a bracket made up.

On my 2.6 it turns out the ARB gets in the way so it has to be mounted slightly differently, other side under the exhaust manifold. The bracket needs making up. I have no idea on the 16v but this is the main problem.

On top of that you need all the air routing, a trigger to turn it on and off (topgun style red switch or a position sensor on the pedal). And of course the airbox itself from the donor which it sounds like you have.

Then a new belt to fit and ensure the pulley on the charger is suitable and its just bits and bobs to sort out I think.... although it is late :)
:lol: I want a supercharger for my 2.0 plz :driver:
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