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| Rad to Efficient ?; Cold Air | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Thu Oct 21, 2010 7:52 pm (1,145 Views) | |
| RichardCC | Thu Oct 21, 2010 7:52 pm Post #1 |
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Hi Guys and Gals, Had a run from home to Adinkerke in Belgium yesterday. As we all know it was rather chilly yesterday both here and on the Continent, something to do with the cold north winds I believe My heater works fine, had a new radiator about six months ago, whole cooling system including heater matrix cleaned, flushed etc ( I use food grade citric acid which is the same as mercs use execpt it is a lot cheaper) and the heater has been fine. Once I start moving at any speed the system cools down, even though the reading on the dial is at the recommended 83-85 degrees. Does anyone know if there is a proper radiator ''muffler'' stop/control the air flowing through the rad and hence keep the temperature up, Cheers Richard 1988 2.5D running on veggie oil |
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| chrismatheou | Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:00 pm Post #2 |
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Enthusiastic Bad Boy
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Sounds like normal to me some cooling down would be expected I would have thought if the car is moving is this significant though? |
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| MadMike | Thu Oct 21, 2010 8:32 pm Post #3 |
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Therapy Needed
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I think I would first of all have a look at the thermostat.Is it an old one ? |
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| RichardCC | Thu Oct 21, 2010 9:36 pm Post #4 |
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Yes, thermostat was renewed with everything else. Water pump. hoses, the lot with the exception of the heater matrix. Plodding round town, etc the heat is overpowering on full and a half setting is more than quite sufficient. Before we left Folkstone on the way back, I put a piece of double skin plastic type stuff, the stuff they make house for sale notices out of, behind the bonnet grill and although this helped a bit it wasn't significant. Stopped at service station just north of Brum, had cuppa coffee - even they were cold yesterday and people were wrapped up in their coats whilst eating/drinking, and put plastic shield actually propped close to rad, sat for five minutes and warmed up car and set off again, and this helped a bit more whilst cruising at 65 - 70. There must be a product out there somewhere, just can't find it at the moment. I remember them as a youngster when cars were not as sophisticated and lots of cars had them. Just like a blind on rollers that could be raised or lowered, but I haven't managed to source one yet. |
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| kentronix | Thu Oct 21, 2010 11:05 pm Post #5 |
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I'm only really here for the Kitchens
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Its not uncommon for thermostats to be supplied faulty or the wrong temperature ones fitted, I had one sold new that didnt work a while back. The thermostats job is to ensure the water will not flow around the block if its not up to temp. It does sound like your waters flowing too low. I would say whip it out and stick it in a cup of hot water to check its working at the correct temp, but I know its a bit of a pain on the 2.5d, tucked up under the exhaust manifold, dumps all your fluid as soon as you touch it ![]() |
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| balamb37 | Thu Oct 21, 2010 11:07 pm Post #6 |
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Grumpy Old Grampa with Dog
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I would bet on the thermostat isn't operating correctly, (sticking open ?) There is thousands of 190s in germany and it gets down to -30c there with no problems. And they drive a lot faster than here even with those temperatures as the roads are cleared there. And that is from personal experience. |
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| RichardCC | Fri Oct 22, 2010 1:54 pm Post #7 |
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Hi, Thanks a lot,, I will whip the thermostat out and test it and keep you updated - likely to tomorrow 'cos I haven't got time today, Cheers Richard |
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| Rich27 | Fri Oct 22, 2010 2:06 pm Post #8 |
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I`m sure my grandad used to put tinfoil on the inside of the grill on his Metro in winter to act as a sort of muffler |
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| kentronix | Fri Oct 22, 2010 2:24 pm Post #9 |
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I'm only really here for the Kitchens
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when I got my wagon it had a plank of wood tucked down in front of the rad. I removed it and put a proper thermostat in
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| RichardCC | Sat Oct 23, 2010 6:07 pm Post #10 |
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Weather to wet to work outside today to take thermostat out and test, tomorrow it is suppose to be dry so will do it then
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| balamb37 | Sat Oct 23, 2010 8:27 pm Post #11 |
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Grumpy Old Grampa with Dog
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Don't forget when replacing the thermostat that the little bleed hole is positioned in the highest place
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| RichardCC | Sat Oct 23, 2010 10:20 pm Post #12 |
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Thanks for the reminder
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| RichardCC | Sun Oct 24, 2010 11:28 pm Post #13 |
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Well thermostat seems to be okay but no improvement when I took her for a run today "before" so I guess I may do the complete citric acid flush as per the mercs maintenance manual and put in a new thermo anyway, they are not that expensive. The coolant didn't appear to be dirty, and when engine warmed up heater matric feed pipes were too hot to keep your hand on apart from just a quick touch' I'll keep you posted as to progress
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| RichardCC | Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:38 pm Post #14 |
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Quote from the Haynes manual One of two types of radiator are used - depending on model. On cars fitted with Air-con the rad is a light alloy crossflow type with plastic coolant compartments at each side. On cars without Air-con the rad is light alloy gravity flow type with plastic compartments at the top and the bottom. SO it looks like I've got the wrong rad "before" as I don't have Air-con and my rad is the one with the plastic coolant compartments at each side. I was asked when I ordered it whether or not it had Air-con and of course said no. Snowflake in hells chance of exchanging it now as it's been fitted for about 4 months Now the question is does anyone know if there is a big difference in coolant efficiency between the two. My initial thoughts are YES. As we know it was bleeding cold last night, minus three here, so at nine'ish when I went into town, it was still cold but once the car warmed up the heater was toasty and warm.Your thoughts and comments are appreciated |
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| Rich27 | Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:48 pm Post #15 |
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My W124 has aircon and the aircon rad is a pretty chunky affair sitting in front of the coolant rad. I assume that the W124s with aircon had rads with the side compartments to aid cooling. |
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| Will | Mon Oct 25, 2010 7:51 pm Post #16 |
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Highly Addicted
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The radiator shouldn't make any difference if the engine is too cold. The thermostat should restrict and stop the flow through the radiator. I think you have a faulty thermostat or housing issue. Will |
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| Richy190E | Mon Oct 25, 2010 8:05 pm Post #17 |
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bubble bubble
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My 124 has an all alloy race spec rad, standard thermostat and the heater is mega toasty even at 100mph (off the public highway naturally) Are you sure there arent any airlocks? |
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| RichardCC | Mon Oct 25, 2010 8:22 pm Post #18 |
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Now, now Richy190E I've seen you on the A55 doing a ton mind you the speed I normally go anybody going over 60 looks like they're speedingRich27 - this is a 190 2.5 Diesel , but I take your point thanks Thermostat opens and closes okay in pan of hot to boiling water, but as I said previously I am going to put a new one in anyway. I'll probably do it on Thursday so I'll post again after that Cheers a lot
Edited by RichardCC, Mon Oct 25, 2010 8:23 pm.
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| RichardCC | Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:37 pm Post #19 |
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Hi, Ordered thermostat from Mercs in Chester and collected it yesterday morning, £11 odd plus vat. A galllon of the pink antifreeze from LVW at just under a tenner. Drained system completely and removed thermostat (again), then mixed up just over half a kilogram of food grade citric acid in hot (not boiling) water giving it a good mix and started topping up system with the mix and then cold water. Start engine and check for leaks, tighten thermo housing a little more to stop these annoying little drips BUT not to tight, just enough. Leave engine running at aprox 1500 revs for 15 plus minutes. DON'T forget to have heater controls fully open and check the valve underneath and to the left of the windscreen wiper mounting is fully open. Had a nice cup of tea whilst I was waiting then drain the system, remembering that it will be hot. Next back flush the system ( in through the heater output pipe and out through where the pipe is conntected to the thermo housing by just loosening clamp and turning pipe down below the engine) Had another cup of tea and allowed fresh water to flow through the whole system for 15 - 20 minutes.Nice clean water coming out, but just to be sure, slowed water to a trickle then up full about 4 or 5 times to give it a bit of a surge effect. Then drain it down completely (through the thermo housing pipe and also the radiator drain) Reconnect all hoses after putting in new thermostat, remembering to correctly position it with the groove in correct place. Slowly put in 5 litres antifreeze and then start engine, Slowly put in 4 litres of clean water (probably less, cos as the maintenance manual explains completely draining the system cannot be achieved using this method) Now run engine again at about 1500 revs for 5 minutes and you should have a reasonably warmed up engine and hot air from your heater Jobs a good un It really is hot now, but having said that it wasn't all that bad before and the thermo that was in there did appear to open and close properly in the pan of boiling water. The big test will of course be when I do a run in really cold weather again so I'll give this thread a bump when that happens Thanks to all for their input so far
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| kentronix | Thu Oct 28, 2010 11:31 pm Post #20 |
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I'm only really here for the Kitchens
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fingers crossed its sorted, keep us updated. Just wanted to add the aircon rad is a bolt on affair that sits in front of the coolant rad. There may well be differences between the ac and non ac coolant rads but it shouldnt be significant in terms of the cooling. Probably just mountings for the extra ac rad. I fancy a cup of tea now
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| Rich27 | Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:48 am Post #21 |
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Do you reckon it will be easy to remove the aircon rad? My aircon (w124) has never worked and its pointless having all the stuff there. Would there be any problems to be wary of when cutting aircon pipes? I have a cup of tea as I type this, and a chocolate biscuit.
Edited by Rich27, Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:49 am.
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| RichardCC | Fri Oct 29, 2010 10:03 am Post #22 |
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Never done it on a 190 so don't know. Long time ago I had a 280TE Estate (W123) and my aircon didn't work so when I had to renew the rad I disconnected the aircon lines as per the book then when I put new rad in it came with connections already blanked off so was not a problem. Might be worth searching the air-con threads for any hints and tips first before you do it |
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| Benzsc1 | Fri Oct 29, 2010 2:41 pm Post #23 |
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Createyourownexit.com
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Now now come on Richy, I am sure u didnt take the wagon on a track to test the heaters at a ton??? If so far play to ya mental lol
Edited by Benzsc1, Fri Oct 29, 2010 2:41 pm.
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| Richy190E | Fri Oct 29, 2010 5:25 pm Post #24 |
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bubble bubble
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You guys forget I have a substantial runway at my disposal..... |
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| kentronix | Fri Oct 29, 2010 6:53 pm Post #25 |
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I did mine, it wasnt hard at all. Mine was already fully degassed and an open system so that part you will have to ensure you do fully and carefully , and probably legally first. I removed the aircon rad after removing the entire rad from the car, you may be able to do it without. I think it was just 4 10mm bolts. The aircon pipes are quite easy to follow. I removed most of the flexible ones and left the hard lines in. The lines look similar to the power steering flex lines and also the auto gearbox lines running to the gearbox cooler (iirc) so be a bit careful. I left all the electrics in. The aircon rad itself is quite heavy. You can remove the pump too but you will need to run a shorter belt, or of course replace it with an eaton45
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| RichardCC | Fri Oct 29, 2010 6:55 pm Post #26 |
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Oh yes, I forgot about that thought I'd taken a wrong turning on my way to Phwelli (if that's how you spell it) "before"
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| RichardCC | Fri Oct 29, 2010 7:03 pm Post #27 |
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Back on subject now, saw Andy yesterday (UKMT) and he suggested that it could also be my viscious fan, apparently they can lock on permanently so he gave me another to try. Think mine is okay but will try a change to see if it makes any difference. Sods law really the weather has turned quite mild so I can't really do a run to compare how it was on the way back from Belgium.Will bump thread when we next get a cold snap I can always do a trip out to somewhere to check it out |
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| RichardCC | Mon Nov 15, 2010 1:24 am Post #28 |
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As promised I would bump the thread when had chance in cold weather. We've had a couple of frosty nights lately but today was the first chance to have a run over a distance at a decent speed, 65-70 and my endeavours (and you're input fellow members) have proved fruitfull. I am not loosing 'cabin heat' at speed now she now stays nice and warm So to recap here's what I did. Summer 2010 - fitted new radiator aprox £110 IIRC October 2010 - after a run to Belgium and back and freezing my little toes off I considered ways of keeping temp in cabin up to what it should be, and eventually decided to follow the maintenance manuals guide on flushing the complete cooling system (last winter I messed about with the flushing heater matrix etc) I allready had a stock of food grade citric acid, so mixed half a kilogram into aprox a litre and half of warm water, giving it a good mix to ensure it was all dissolved, meanwhile had drained the cooling system ( make sure heater controls in cabin are completely on full heat position) and removed the thermostat. Having previously purchased a new one from Mercs ready to put back in after flushing system. Replaced thermostat housing, without thermostat, I back flushed system via heater return metal pipe for five minutes, then drained system via radiator drain plug. Then poured in citric acid mix and brought water levels up to correct levels. Obviousy I had reconnected heater return hose. After starting and running engine for a few minutes and starting to get a reading on the dash display, increased revs to aprox 1500 and left to run for 15 minutes. Engine and heater pretty warm at this stage so take care when draining system again ready for final back flush for five minutes or so. After final flush and draining system, I replaced the thermostat (new) and decided not to use the old antifreeze mixture so used new at a 50 - 50 dilution rate, and carefully adding last litre slowly uping and downing the revs to help get rid of any possible air locks. There are plenty of threads on using various methods of restoring heater performance or lack of and I'd previously tried many of them, but I must admit the mercs maintenance manual doesn't have this method of using citric acid (described as mercs flushing solution - just citric acid food grade) for no reason than it's probably the best effective method of achieving a positive result. As an aside, the cooling system is at the heart of your engine and is far too often neglected (I hold my hand up ) so I consider the new rad, thermo and antifreeze as an essential part of routine maintenance, the car had run a lot better and the engine sounded better after fitting the new rad, and the heating/cooling situation at the end of the day must definately been a dodgy thermostat. (did the hot water test and it seemed ok but it obviously wasn't)Thanks for all your help and advice gents PS Hope to test out the viscous fan later this week |
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to work outside today to take thermostat out and test, tomorrow it is suppose to be dry so will do it then
does anyone know if there is a big difference in coolant efficiency between the two. My initial thoughts are YES. As we know it was bleeding cold last night, minus three here, so at nine'ish when I went into town, it was still cold but once the car warmed up the heater was toasty and warm.
mind you the speed I normally go anybody going over 60 looks like they're speeding
then drain the system, remembering that it will be hot. Next back flush the system ( in through the heater output pipe and out through where the pipe is conntected to the thermo housing by just loosening clamp and turning pipe down below the engine)
Jobs a good un
3:55 PM Jul 11