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Head Gasket failing, repair uneconomical - drive to the death?
Topic Started: Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:41 pm (6,341 Views)
Rog
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Hi there, regular lurker here. My poor 190D ('92 2.0, 280k on the clock) has started leaking oil into the coolant and the rad cap is showing the dreaded milky gunge. The car has also lost about 150-200ml of coolant over the last 200 miles.

Unfortunately, I have neither the time or expertise to replace the HG and given the age and condition of the car, I could probably replace it with something better for the price of getting a decent garage to do it.

So my question is, does anyone have experience with continued driving of a 190 diesel on a failing gasket? The car is still driving well, temp is stable and I haven't noticed any smoke. The car isn't really worth anything (though it is only a couple of months into a two year NCT - Irish MOT), so if I could get another day/week/month on it I'd likely just keep driving.

I'd love to hear if anybody has any experience in killing an old diesel warhorse. Cheers.
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Richy190E
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If you are hell bent on running it into the ground i'd suggest K seal.
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Rog
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I'm not hell bent on running it into the ground, I'm hell bent on not spending money I don't have! I'm not going to pawn the car off on someone else and make it there problem, no one is going to buy it knowing that the Head Gasket is likely to go and as I said, unfortunately, I don't have the necessary knowledge or experience to do the job myself.

Thanks for the K-Seal suggestion; I was not aware of it. I've just bought some on eBay - I'll park up the Merc and drive the other half's car till it arrives. I've checked out some reviews and it just might buy me a little extra time...
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chrismatheou
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Just do the head gasket on it.. for cheap preferably by a back alley guy or someone with good prices if the car isn't all that.

But is the car in mention actually boloxed otherwise? Or are we simply talking the car ain't worth much because it's old so I don't want to do it kinda of thinking here.

If you use something like K Seal I suggest you block of your heater matrix for a while by turning the heater knobs to cold or better still pinching the hoses with mole grips otherwise there is a fair chance that your heater goes walkies too.
Edited by chrismatheou, Wed Aug 31, 2011 4:04 am.
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horatio
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Running it until it dies just means you'll be stranded in the worst place at the worst time!

If you get it before you overheat you probably won't need to skim the head & will get away with an off-on job. I got a good job done on my 190e for 350 all in . Call around for price or sell spares/repairs.

Its probably worth more than you think, even if the condition means parts or export.
Edited by horatio, Wed Aug 31, 2011 10:03 am.
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p1RATE
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im currently running with a failing head gasket and doing about 70 miles a day on it too. i thought i would notice something but tbh i cant really tell the difference other than having to top the oil up regually. looking at the coolant its pretty gungie as well. im fairly convinced i could run it for a long time before i kill it.

However i have decided i want a new engine as the 1.8 petrol isnt very powerful or economical, and i have too much of an attachment to my car to let it die. So i have bought myself a car with a doner engine and with relitavly little knowledge i plan to swap them.
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shrekky
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are you sure its the head gasket ? the reason i ask, is that heads on these cars, both petrol and diesel are susceptible to corrosion in the waterways, where the wall between the waterway and oilway is corroded through not running the right coolant (ie with anti-freeze in, just water :help: ) , and what happens is the wall becomes porous,and oil seeps through into the waterway feckknows


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p1RATE
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shrekky
Wed Aug 31, 2011 10:28 am
are you sure its the head gasket ? the reason i ask, is that heads on these cars, both petrol and diesel are susceptible to corrosion in the waterways, where the wall between the waterway and oilway is corroded through not running the right coolant (ie with anti-freeze in, just water :help: ) , and what happens is the wall becomes porous,and oil seeps through into the waterway feckknows


would that be why im not getting goo in the oil? my only diagnostic was opening the coolant to see a load of crap on the inside of the cap and oil in the tank.
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shrekky
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p1RATE
Wed Aug 31, 2011 10:34 am
shrekky
Wed Aug 31, 2011 10:28 am
are you sure its the head gasket ? the reason i ask, is that heads on these cars, both petrol and diesel are susceptible to corrosion in the waterways, where the wall between the waterway and oilway is corroded through not running the right coolant (ie with anti-freeze in, just water :help: ) , and what happens is the wall becomes porous,and oil seeps through into the waterway feckknows


would that be why im not getting goo in the oil? my only diagnostic was opening the coolant to see a load of crap on the inside of the cap and oil in the tank.
it could be, the only way to find out is to get the head pressure tested, and letting them know to specifically look for this



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Matt
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If the head was failing badly, you would get big pressure build up in the header tank.
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alan
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hmmmm interesting
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Matt
Wed Aug 31, 2011 1:26 pm
If the head was failing badly, you would get big pressure build up in the header tank.
I had this on mine I stuck a bottle under the over flow pipe and so I could see it any is leaking out of the cap also meant I could refill it back in to save a filling with water only as a temp measure till I got it fixed
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G3MAW
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Repairing the HG will be a lot cheaper than a year's depreciation on any thing else you buy ( together with any faults which manifest themselves i.e. someone else's trouble). The 'k' seal will certainly seal the engine's fate - MB diesels are worth saving, unless the car's a complete shed!
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PARI
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K seal is the way forward fella, if you want cheap as chips repair, but obviously advisable to do a pressure test.
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Richy190E
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Is it an auto, could also be the gearbox cooler in the rad. If its the head it will likely be down to corrosion. There are enough of us here to type you through a DIY repair or there may be a helpful member just around the corner prepared to help.
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Rog
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Thanks for all the advice - much appreciated and good points all.

The car is a manual, I'm the fifth owner, having driven it for the last five years, and in the time I've ran it, it's been well looked after, coolant, oil, hydraulics wise etc. I also keep it in an underground carpark.

As to whether it's worth saving... difficult to call. It's relatively sound but pretty tired - for example, the underside is solid but the paint (midnight blue) is really showing it's age, all the door seals could do with being replaced, the bumpers are very faded, the interior is clean but well worn, all the rear suspension links could do with rebushing, the timing chain is due, the diff can be a bit noisy, a new set of engine-mounts and strut-top mounts wouldn't go amiss, one of the front wings is mostly fibreglass...

...and on it goes! It has been a fantastic car in the time I've had it - utterly reliable and still returning near 50mpg (90% of my driving is motorway).

I'll get it pressure tested before pouring the k-seal in - there doesn't appear to be any great pressure build-up in the header tank - I'll drive it to work in the morning and give Alan's trick a go - will be interesting to see if I'm loosing anything on the overflow.

Right now I'm going to open a beer, sit down and have a think about it! Thanks again.
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G3MAW
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Like you're probably up to here with 'advice', right now. Cut to the chase - you obviously need a reliable daily driver, so forget all the cosmetic c..p and just deal with the most immediate item(s) that will keep your donkey alive. Timing chain, that can wait. Top mounts, will still work even if there's daylight starting to show through - just drive accordingly. As long as it still starts, steers and stops then do the HG ( just the HG) and you've still got some reliable wheels. After five years ownership you 'know' this car better than any other secondhand alternative.
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Rog
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Covered 70 miles today, no pressure related symptoms from the header tank - no loss via the overflow, no smoke, no overheating, just oily coolant and gunk!

I'm going to call into an independent mechanic with a soft spot for old mercs tomorrow evening and see if he can take a look at it. If he can sort it out for €300-400... I'll probably get it done...
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Rog
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Quick update - the prices I've been quoted for getting the HG sorted out have been astronomical - at least double what I could afford to pay. Maybe it's just Dublin - my sister lives in the back of beyond and is going to check with her local tractor mechanic to see what he'd charge.

The Indy mechanic I called to said if he was doing the job at all, he'd do it properly; and to do it properly he'd have to charge me more then the worth of the car. He also added that were it his car, so long as the temperature was steady and it wasn't misfiring, he'd keep driving it as is, topping up the coolant as required. I won't repeat what he said about K-seal on a family forum..!
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Toff190
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Just to give you an idea on price.

Six weeks ago, a mate of mine had a HG and skim on his 1.8, total cost £350, indy garage in Bournemouth.
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Rog
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Double that figure, stick a Euro symbol in front of it, and you'd still be some way off the cheapest quote I got. Not a happy camper...
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Toff190
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Well if its double that figure, I wouldn't bother to be honest.
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Rog
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Believe it or not... the average quote was €1500, and I'm not talking main dealers here.

Oddly enough, the figure €1500 cropped up time and again on discussions around HG jobs on Irish-based forums, regardless of make or model of car. Seems a lot of people get the job done in Northern Ireland instead. Could be an option.
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shrekky
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toff190
Mon Sep 5, 2011 8:04 pm
Just to give you an idea on price.

Six weeks ago, a mate of mine had a HG and skim on his 1.8, total cost £350, indy garage in Bournemouth.
thats the average price for a head gasket job, as they skim the head and re-seat the valves


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cossie connoisseur
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price is taking the **insert swear word here**, can get head rebuilt for that...hell you can fit a second hand engine for that!

one good thing would be to flush the coolant system out as that will extend the life of it
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Toff190
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shrekky
Mon Sep 5, 2011 8:58 pm
toff190
Mon Sep 5, 2011 8:04 pm
Just to give you an idea on price.

Six weeks ago, a mate of mine had a HG and skim on his 1.8, total cost £350, indy garage in Bournemouth.
thats the average price for a head gasket job, as they skim the head and re-seat the valves


£350 was for the head gasket (inc parts) and skim the head, didnt touch the valves.

Saying that, he did get quotes at £800+
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Rog
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I flushed the coolant two weeks ago, just after I noticed oil in the header tank. Also changed the oil, no sign of water in it. I did about 200 miles over the weekend, mix of motorway and town driving. No overheating or coolant loss, though fresh gunk on the rad cap after cleaning it on Friday last. If I can find someone to help me with the timing, I might have a go at the job myself. Till then, every journey will be a new adventure into the unknown!
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G3MAW
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Rog,
Might just be worth your while crossing the pond to Liverpool and visiting a very capable specialist indy in the Wirral, or N.Wales. Seriously, the job for HG should take no more than 6-7 hours, depending on the state of the head. With labour at around £45 to £55 an hour and gaskets at around £60, budget about £80 for a skim and rebuild. Do the maths and you'd be quids in even with the boat fare.
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Mork
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I gather from the comments that you nobody likes K-Seal? Can I ask why? I have recently had a service and asked for some to be put in to help prevent a head gasket failure (due to age of vehicle and mileage), rather than cure one. If this is not recommended then I will drop the coolant and just put water/anti-freeze in.
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G3MAW
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Mork, K seal uses silicates to close off low pressure points in the cooling system, but it does seem to continue expanding along the internal water channels within the c/head. See the photos of this in my reply to Nelos on an earlier thread on this issue. The head in the photo could not be pressure tested off the vehicle due to the build-up of K seal and the only method of unblocking the head was to immerse it in a bath of dilute sulphuric acid for 24 hours. The K seal had stopped the water loss out of the header tank but a coolant system pressure test had previously shown that the water was still being pressurised out of the circuit ( via the exhaust valve, in fact, as it turned out). K seal may be fine for treating large commercial vehicle engines, for which, I believe it was originally developed, but ,in the light of my experierience, I would urge you to flush it out of your system as soon as possible.
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Mork
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G3MAW, thanks for the info. The car's only done a couple of hundred miles since being serviced, so hopefully there won't be any lasting affects. I'll drop the fluid this weekend and flush it with clean water before refillig with standard antifreeze mix. The only reason for asking is that, when looking through the service history in more detail from the previous owner, I noticed that there had been a sniffer test done which showed the gasket on it's way out. However, that was over 5000 miles ago and it runs sweetly with no oil or water where there shouldn't be. But if K-Seal, or other sealants, could potentially make it worse, it seems best to flush and refill.
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G3MAW
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Best to route the small plastc hose from the top of the header tank ( just under the filler cap) into a small bottle strapped to the heater pipe, which runs at the side of the header, which will allow you to keep an eye on any water pressurised out of the header and for any excess pressure ( in the form of bubbles ) when you switch off a hot engine.
These are the symptoms to watch out for. A COOLING SYSTEM PRESSURE TEST should be done, in any event, because the problem with K seal is that it can supress these indications, so the pressure test is a 'must'.
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Rog
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Another update - 500 more miles, still no sign of impending doom; no coolant loss and no fresh gunk on rad cap. In light of the discussion here, I'm holding off on the K-seal for the moment. I assume the Holts products operate on a similar principle to K-seal - any thoughts on whether they would pose less of a danger to the narrow channels in the head???
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Rog
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The inevitable happened - one morning around the start of Oct, I headed out on my way to work only to leave West Dublin under a smoke screen that would've done the Bismark proud. I managed to limp home before pushing the temp up or loosing all my oil, stole the significant other's Punto, got to work and pondered my poor 190s future.

So I bit the bullet and decided to do the decent thing - DIY gasket change. Oh the fun!

- Inlet manifold ventilation hose disintigrates
- Hex key brakes in bolt: days getting the bloody thing out
- Cylinder Head bolts actually move fairly easily, except for three-from-last; recessed head is pre-shredded. Drill, Dremel, Cursing, Crying, success
- Timing chain upper rail pins: ARRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. A local engineering outfit kindly give me a few indestructable bolts, which promply sheer. More drilling and a little hacksawing for variety.
- Finally lift head. Gasket is chewed to bits and head badly pitted
- Some good luck - engineering crowd that do a lot of classic work take a look, reckon the pitting won't cause a problem, clean the head up, skim and sort me out with a new gasket, timing chain kit and stretch bolts.
- Some bad (idiot) luck - whilst polishing the block flange clean with a dremel, I manage to knock a dremel bit into the Timing Chain Housing... no sign of the bloody thing, so...

I'm guessing sump will have to come off. From what I've read here, so long as you can move the bolts on the engine mounts, it shouldn't be that difficult.

One more thing I could do with a little help on: How do you remove the tensioner guide rail? Haynes imply it should just lift out... mine moves freely back and forth, but won't wiggle free.

Cheers.
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Gerry Lloyd
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Is there a chance the engine will run ok and the bit will just lie where it fell? I also drop a small bolt down there and sponged a magnet-on-a-stick from a nearby techie. :huh:
Edited by Gerry Lloyd, Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:01 pm.
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Rog
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I've tried fishing around with a magnet on a flexible rod, no luck. when I knocked it in, I thought it would be precariously balanced somewhere within sight, but it completely vanished!

Dunno about leaving it in place - it could be caught on a cog or the timing chain.
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Gerry Lloyd
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Rog
Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:43 pm
I've tried fishing around with a magnet on a flexible rod, no luck. when I knocked it in, I thought it would be precariously balanced somewhere within sight, but it completely vanished!

Dunno about leaving it in place - it could be caught on a cog or the timing chain.
how about turning the engine by hand in order to rotate the timing chain, with a view to making the bit visible? (remembering timing mark issues of course)
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Rog
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Cheers for the suggestion; Could do - I'd have to be careful though - I have the timing chain held on the cam sproket with cable ties and I'm in fear of loosing the timing. I'm going to go back to it now; also thinking I might try a can of compressed air to see if I can shift it from wherever it is. Will update later...
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Rog
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Managed to locate the dremel disc with a coat hanger - used an improvised attachment on the end of a vaccum cleaner to lift it out of the depths of the timing chain cover. Took bloody hours and I've only managed to get it to where I can actually see it!

I'll try again tomorrow...
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threepointbadge
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Hi Rog,

Sounds like you are nearly there

You have had a fair bit of patience with this. I have a good contact in Dublin for you if you run into trouble.

I think you will look back on this and smile... in a few years, especially if you keep the car.

Feel free to PM me if you run in to bother.
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Rog
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threepointbadge
Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:46 pm
Hi Rog,

Sounds like you are nearly there

You have had a fair bit of patience with this. I have a good contact in Dublin for you if you run into trouble.

I think you will look back on this and smile... in a few years, especially if you keep the car.

Feel free to PM me if you run in to bother.
A very kind offer - I might well take you up on it. This evening I came agonisingly close to fishing the little disc out, only for it to vanish off the end of the retriever claw. I'd say it's been quite a while since Rathfarnham heard such cursing. So what the hell; looks like Saturday will be Sump Removal day. With rad and all the other bits and pieces out, hopefully it won't be too bad.

Plan is:

Undo engine mounts, remove steering damper and ARB
Jack engine up a few inches (scaffold plank off-cut on two trolly jacks under sump)
Remove mounts, wedge in wood blocks, cry at state of mounts and buy new pair from German Autoparts
Remove jacks
Undo bolts
Slide sump out...

...hope that bloody wee disc is sitting in it
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