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| R134a vs the older R12 aircon refrigerant; R12 availability or conversion? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Thu Dec 26, 2013 12:58 pm (1,407 Views) | |
| dghmerc | Thu Dec 26, 2013 12:58 pm Post #1 |
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Newbie
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Mornin' all Not yet a proud 190E owner, but, hopefully, soon... Anyway, I've found a nice-looking 2-litre auto with full leather & aircon. However, I've elsewhere read that the 'older' R12 aircon refrigerant (which the car I'm interested in may or may not have - how could I tell?) is no longer available (for environmental reasons), and that it is 'costly' to modify a car to use the new R134a stuff. Can anyone throw any light on this for me? Thanks, and festive best wishes! |
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| barretts02 | Thu Dec 26, 2013 6:47 pm Post #2 |
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Part of things
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I'm not air con expert but I'll chuck my few pennies in until someone with more expertise can come along. R134A technically isn't as good as R12 as far as being a refrigerant gas is concerned, so you'll never have as cold air blowing as you used to. I've never experienced the difference in temperatures between the 2 gasses so I can't comment on whether or not this difference is even noticable. On old Volvos (so I assume Mercedes as well, A/C systems can't differ by that much surely? ) to get it running all you need to do is change all the O-Rings in the system and pump it up with R134A. The compressors are compatible, as are the heat exchangers, dryers and evaporators.Whilst researching this for a Volvo I read there is a technicality in place: the law says you aren't allowed to manufacture R12 any more, but you can still use what's in existence. so if you can find an entrepreneuring air con specialist who has recovered the gas from old cars and fridges they could top/fill you up with the old stuff legally.
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| Gaz2N | Thu Dec 26, 2013 11:52 pm Post #3 |
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Old Merc nutter
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Hi there, In my humble opinion I'd keep well away from any 190e with A/C. Do you know if it's factory fitted? More than likely that it will be aftermarket and therefore most probably Diavia. All the parts are bespoke and no longer available. If the car is 1993 onwards it will probably have the more modern hoses and can be converted to R134a. If not you'll be stuck with R12 substitute which is only available at a A/C specialists and costs about twice the price of R134a. I had my 1993 LE (Diavia System) changed over which cost about £150-£200. This included new oil in the compressor, new connectors and a new dryer, plus new gas/dye). Once the system was converted it was noticeably less cold although still adequate. I found it sapped too much power from the 2.0 engine to ever really want to use it. I now have Diavia A/C in my 300CE and 190e 2.6. Both have R12 substitute and both are working but I really need new blower motors for both and you just can't get them new (as far as Ive found anyway). Personally, unless you have your heart set on this car I would try to find another without A/C. Systems this old will now need new parts to keep them running and unless it's a rare factory system it will cause headaches. I'm intending to remove the system from my coupe in the next year or so. Sorry if Ive put you off. Gary |
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| dghmerc | Fri Dec 27, 2013 2:02 am Post #4 |
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| dghmerc | Fri Dec 27, 2013 2:07 am Post #5 |
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Thanks for your input; perhaps I need to start looking for that entrepreneur (or perhaps, better still, forget that the car even has aircon?)! |
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| dghmerc | Fri Dec 27, 2013 2:18 am Post #6 |
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Thanks, Gary. Now I'm getting a little bit concerned! It's a 1992 car, and not sure whether the aircon (and leather seats) are a factory-fit or not. I shall ask (though the current owner may not know, of course). It is possibly more significant that you mention the loss of power from the 2-litre engine, so maybe - if I can't resist the car - I could just forget that it's even got aircon (and hope that global warming doesn't bite too hard!). Anyway, the more info I can find on the issue, the better prepared I shall be, so your feedback is most welcome. Thanks again. Derek. |
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| eagle3 | Fri Dec 27, 2013 3:42 am Post #7 |
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Therapy Needed
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The air-con is most-likely factory-fit and should be on the list of options(as would be leather upholstery) for the car. |
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| Jure | Fri Dec 27, 2013 7:00 am Post #8 |
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More than part of things
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Just give your mercedes dealer the VIN number and he'll check if it was factory fitted. But it's really not much fun to use it in my 1.8. The engine is just too weak and is loosing additional power every 30 seconds. |
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| Gaz2N | Fri Dec 27, 2013 9:09 am Post #9 |
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Old Merc nutter
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If you can get hold of the chassis number you can check if the a/c is factory fitted. Enter the chassis no into the online parts site / vin checker and get presto! I've probably looked far more than 100 190's in my time and probably seen about 7 or 8 with a/c. Of those only one was factory fitted. Even on eBay/autotrader I've seen maybe one or two more. Factory a/c is super rare as is was so expensive and you could get a diavia system fitted by the dealer for about half the price! On a car such as the 190 that was relatively cheap (for a Merc) the huge cost for factory a/c would have been hard to justify. If you have a close up photo of the centre console or engine bay I'll be able to tell if it's factory or not. Another way to tell is if the right hand slider (the a/c one) is a bit wobbly compared to the other one. The stalk is a soft plastic on diavia. Hope that helps? Gary PS. If the rest of the car is spot-on then it's probably worth the risk. After all you could always remove the whole system. Edited by Gaz2N, Fri Dec 27, 2013 10:02 am.
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| cossie connoisseur | Fri Dec 27, 2013 9:52 am Post #10 |
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there can be only one ;-)
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i changed the one in my old auto 16v and they changed the oil, dryer and a few of the seals....i changed the condensor as it had sprung a leak and was not reparable. the system in that car was a factory fit in 1989 and would cool the car fine really, cost me £150 to do excuding the condensor which was another £100 from euromerc (genuine) they dont run as well with the new gas but its all you will get unless you replace the whole system..... |
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| dghmerc | Fri Dec 27, 2013 5:49 pm Post #11 |
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![]() Thanks, Gary. I (think I've!) included an image of the engine bay here, but alas haven't a good one of the centre console. As you (and others) suggest, I think I should try to get hold of the chassis number. The car is over 150 miles from my home, so it would be nice to be 'fully armed' when I go to view next week. Thanks again: you have been most helpful. Regards, Derek |
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| dghmerc | Fri Dec 27, 2013 5:52 pm Post #12 |
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Thanks for your input. Some people are suggesting that it is highly unlikely the aircon is factory-fitted, so I think the suggestion of trying to get hold of the chassis number would be a good move. I much appreciate your help. Regards, Derek |
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| dghmerc | Fri Dec 27, 2013 5:54 pm Post #13 |
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Thanks for your response. Others too have suggested that the engine (even the 2-litre) suffers somewhat when the aircon is in use, so maybe it'll be a case of sticking my head out of the window when next year's heatwave (hopefully!) arrives. Regards, Derek |
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| dghmerc | Fri Dec 27, 2013 5:59 pm Post #14 |
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Many thanks for your response; I'll get the hang of this forum concept in due course! (I thought I had already replied to you, but can't see now that I have!). Interesting to read your comments on the 2 refrigerants. I need to find out more from the vendor about the aircon system that is fitted (probably via the VIN number). Again, thanks. Regards, Derek |
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| dghmerc | Fri Dec 27, 2013 6:04 pm Post #15 |
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Thanks for your reply. Yes, it would appear from others that the original refrigerant was more effective than the newer variant. Your own experience suggests that it wouldn't be too expensive to 'upgrade', providing I suppose that the aircon system is factory-fitted (which others suggest can be determined from the VIN number). Again, many thanks. Regards, Derek |
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| eagle3 | Fri Dec 27, 2013 6:11 pm Post #16 |
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Therapy Needed
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![]() Chassis number is on that ally ^^ rectangular plaque in front of the radiator IIRC. Also stamped on the bodywork in the engine bay(can't remember where but quite visible). You could of course remove the pump and put a shorter belt on if you decide it's not necessary. Edited by eagle3, Fri Dec 27, 2013 6:32 pm.
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| Gaz2N | Fri Dec 27, 2013 6:29 pm Post #17 |
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Old Merc nutter
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Hmmm... Thanks for the picture. What I really wanted to see was the fan arrangement as that's easiest clue. It looks like it has a replacement Nissens radiator in it which makes it harder to tell! Engine bay looks very clean though and it even still has it's original Scorpion alarm siren! It certainly looks a good car based on that alone! Unfortunately none of the A/C hoses or fans can be seen from the pic so it's a little bit of guesswork. Just judging by the fan shroud I'd say it's Diavia but it's only a guess (albeit a mildly educated one). As long as the system is working and the fan is quiet and powerful then you should not need to worry unduly. Get the a specialist to recharge it every 24 months with R12 substitute or just leave it and forget about it. If you are serious about the car the seller should have no probs supplying you with the chassis number. Armed with that you'll be able to determine if the A/C is factory fitted. As a Mercedes Benz club member I have access to the EPC, so if you want to PM me the chassis number I can look up the options for you. It only takes two minutes! Gary |
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) to get it running all you need to do is change all the O-Rings in the system and pump it up with R134A. The compressors are compatible, as are the heat exchangers, dryers and evaporators.


3:21 PM Jul 11