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Engine - knocking noise 2.3 16v
Topic Started: Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:23 am (1,834 Views)
Rob Cosworth
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** cos-rob **
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I noticed a knocking noise from my valver (2.3 16v) the other day while it was idling,

I was hoping ye could have a listen to the clip below and let me know your thoughts!

I took this video last night before I changed the oil & filter

the clip makes it sound worse that it actually is.... it seems to amplify it! which is handly in this case... :D

It seems to be top end and coming from the front of the engine, possibly from the timing chain area, (single timing chain)

in the clip you can hear it from 0 to 25 seconds and more clearly from 40 seconds onwards at low revs,

I'm hoping to compression test over the weekend,

thanks,

Rob.







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MoCar
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Hi Rob, I haven't watched the vid, its not playing on my phone but from your description it sounds like the gearbox. There's a great article on here about the getrag's and their quirks, mine knocks if the revs are sub 700rpm.
Karen.

Found article...post #3 by Matsalleh76

http://mercedes-190.co.uk/topic/6529264/1/#new

Edited by MoCar, Thu Nov 20, 2014 12:34 pm.
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MoCar
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Have you taken the camcover off? If the noise is coming from the top, you may have a slack timing chain, check the timing and much sure it hasn't skipped a tooth.
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Rob Cosworth
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** cos-rob **
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Hi Karen,

I haven't taken the cam cover off yet, I do have a new cam cover gasket on order and I'll have a peep when fitting it over the weekend along
with doing the compression test,

thanks for the info on the gearbox knocking noise... I hope it turns out to be the answer to my problem but I have a feeling it wont,

I know you cant see the vid but its basically me holding my camera phone over the engine while its idling,

the noise does seem to come from the timing chain area,

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MoCar
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MoCar
Thu Nov 20, 2014 12:39 pm
Have you taken the camcover off? If the noise is coming from the top, you may have a slack timing chain, check the timing and much sure it hasn't skipped a tooth.
Just watched the vid, definitely not the Getrag knock... that's much louder.

I'm sure there's more experienced members on hear who can pinpoint the noise better, but it does seem to be from the front-top. To me that suggests a slack timing chain, if it has jumped a tooth it's fairly conclusive. How many miles has the chain done? I think they can leave a mark on the camcover if they are really loose.


Happy hunting!
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RobertE
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Serial victim...
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I think that you should inspect the chain and tensioner. The noise seems up/down (a little). If it was only the shims, the noise would be constant. But while you are at it...
Edited by RobertE, Thu Nov 20, 2014 2:15 pm.
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Rob Cosworth
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MoCar
Thu Nov 20, 2014 1:45 pm

How many miles has the chain done? I think they can leave a mark on the camcover if they are really loose.


thats the thing.... I dont know! :blink:

the only thing I do know is that this cover (whatwever its called) was removed at some stage in its life as you can see a little excess gasket
maker on the sides,

what this means, I dont know but yes I'll take off the cam cover tonight and report back with some proper info,

Posted Image


yes, I know I have a small oil leak too, :D

its around the dipstick tube area, I have a dipstick o-ring and cam cover gasket on the way....


.
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Uk Merc Man
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the timing cover doesn't use a gasket - its sealed with gasket maker from the factory...

i'd be tempted to remove the drive belt and restart - that'll stop the water pump, alternator, PS pump, etc, turning - just in case its one of them.

another trick is to hold the tip of a screwdriver to the cam cover and put the handle to your ear - you'd be surprised how much easier this makes tracking down where noises are coming from....

good luck!
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Rob Cosworth
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Quick update,

I managed to find an old compression tester in work and I just had a go at it....

starting with the furthest cylinder in (closest the windscreen) I got the following;

Cyl 4. = 12 bar
Cyl 3. = 13 bar
Cyl 2. = 12 bar (well almost)
Cyl 1. = I cant get a reading!!

I can't get the bloody gauge to thread in, no matter what I do it won't work!

I threaded the spark plug back in and its fine, tried the gauge again but no way will it thread in!! feckknows


I'll take off the cam cover in a bit and put up some photos later on.....



.



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Rob Cosworth
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I ran out of time last night but what I found so far is;


1. The noise seems to start after a couple of minutes of idling, not from cold!

2. I took off the cam cover and the chain is tight and looks okay ( I can post pics if needed)

3. I ran it without the drive belt and the noise seemed to stop, but I probably need to do this again for a longer period of time tonight!

4. I opened the air breather box and found a little water sitting at the end of the box!! :help:

5. I then opened the exp. tank cap while it was idling (without the drive belt) and the coolant spilled up & over, I watched it for a minute and the coolant kept rising and lowering in waves... is this normal?


please dont tell me my head gasket is fecked!!


.
Edited by Rob Cosworth, Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:02 am.
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MoCar
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I wouldn't panic just yet, could just be the water pump bearing.

More diagnostics needed, as UK Merc Man suggests, get a long screwdriver or even better a cheap Mechanics stethoscope and put it on the areas around the timing case cover. If its a bearing going you'll find it easy enough.... just be careful! Take the Fan cowl off it you need too.... it'll give you more space to work.

If the chain isn't slack that's good news. :)

Water in the breather box may just be condensation...perfect time of year for it.

I'm sure you'll find it :driver:

K.

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Rob Cosworth
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Okay, so I started the car from cold this evening with the fan belt off and it was idling fine, no noise for about 5 minutes but gradually the knocking noise came back so I shut her off...

so that rules out the water and power steering pump etc.

I put back on the fan belt and started her up and again it was idling fine for a couple of minutes but the knocking soon came back & louder then ever!!!

so in a nutshell the knocking noise only starts after it gets warm,

I tried the screwdriver trick but can't pin point the noise at all,

I'm starting to think it could be bottom end, maybe a bearing or something??

I know I'm probably better off getting someone to look at her but if anyone has any final thoughts I appreciate them,





.
Edited by Rob Cosworth, Fri Nov 21, 2014 8:48 pm.
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Rob Cosworth
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** cos-rob **
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...........

Edited by Rob Cosworth, Sat Nov 22, 2014 11:09 am.
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Rob Cosworth
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Final post before I get her checked over by the local garage next week,

I started her up from cold this morning with the fan belt on, coolant topped up and it was ticking over like a clock, sounding like it always has done,

after about 5 minutes it started knocking again, as soon as it get up to 60 - 70 degrees,

It could be the cold morning but it started to put out white smoke just as it started knocking.
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Rob Cosworth
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** cos-rob **
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Its bottom end!

its hard to describe where the noise is coming from but when I got down on my knees it sounded like it was literally coming through the rad,

stuck my head under the front bumper and yes its bottom end,

so I have a bottom end knocking with white smoke when it warms up,

do these engines suffer from con rods getting bent or bearings failing....

I'm wondering now if its even worth my while repairing this engine if the bottom end needs doing seeing that the cylinder head probably needs an overhaul, and a new timing chain too,




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JustbeCoz
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It could be the harmonic balancer/pulley on the front of the crank has come loose or the camchain lower guide rail has worn through. Best to get it checked before you call it dead. Is the oil pressure generally good?
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Rob Cosworth
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hopefully so...could that cause white smoke tho?

it only puts on while smoke when it gets warm and starts to knock.

I'll be asking the garage to take off the sump first for a look see so time will tell I suppose..

edit... oil pressure reads 3 pretty much after start up.
Edited by Rob Cosworth, Sun Nov 23, 2014 8:49 pm.
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stwat
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Is the 'smoke' simply not just condensate? Which is perfectly normal at this time of year. Is it using oild and/or water?

Have you checked the belt tensioner shock absorber for play in the bushes?
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Rob Cosworth
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since I heard the knocking I've not driven it, I've only had it idling a few times.... 10 - 15 minutes a go

I thought that too about the smoke & time of year etc but it was putting put white smoke yesterday evening and it was 12 - 14 degrees out,

the belt tensioner seems fine but I'll get the garage to check that too,

thanks Stu,


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Paulossie
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Potato

It might even be piston slap these old cars did suffer from that, not much you can do about it just drive it, the white smoke like stwat says its that time of year all my old sheds do that, can you get the garage to do a sniff test on it to see if the head gasket's gone? but I would get the sump off and take a look at the bearings,I cant remember can you get the sump off with the engine in the car isn't there a cross member below the sump?
Edited by Paulossie, Sun Nov 23, 2014 10:15 pm.
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cossie connoisseur
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there can be only one ;-)
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the fact it changed noice and length without the fan belt would lead me to believe the waterpump could be the culprit. bearing/fan

without seeing the car and hearing it is quite hard to determine but that is what i think it could well be.

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cossie connoisseur
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there can be only one ;-)
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where are you located?
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Rob Cosworth
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I'm in Ireland. . : :)

It makes the same noise after the same lenght of time with or without the belt.. as soon as it get warm, over 60 degrees
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Big Ben
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What you are describing sounds like a typical head gasket failure. The knocking is caused when water gets into the cylinder as the increase in temperature starts to pressurise the water system. Change the head gasket and all will be good!

PS, the noise will sound like its coming from the bottom end as the big ends take all the stress from the incompressibility of the water!
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Rob Cosworth
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** cos-rob **
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Thanks for all the help everyone....... as usual its greatly appreciated,

I spoke with a gentleman this morning who owns quiet a few of these cars and has done work to the 2.3 & 2.5 engines in the past,

I'll be winching her up onto a trailer and making the trip to him in a couple of weeks time so fingers crossed,

If the engine does have to come out at least I perfect opportunity to revamp the engine bay..... :D



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Paulossie
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When you get over being pi55ed of that it's gone wrong it's great rebuilding the engine if your doing the head have a look into getting it polished and ported it made quite a difference to mine.
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Rob Cosworth
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** cos-rob **
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I had a go at getting the sump off this evening,


it was harder than I thought.... the engine does have to be jacked up fairly high to get it out,

the first thing I saw was this as I was wiggling the sump out from the cross member,

looks like it was dripping down into the sump from the rear of the engine,

Posted Image


the second thing I noticed as I was draining the last of the oil out was that the sump was repaired from the inside,

I gave it a wipe down and it looks like some sort of chemical metal??

Posted Image


finally.... the last thing that's concerning me is that there seems to be hairline cracks inside the sump, they don't go through to the outside but worrying all the same,

Posted Image


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stwat
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Ooo cripes, that doesn't look good!
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Rob Cosworth
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** cos-rob **
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:lol: which part

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Rob Cosworth
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forgot to mention that I had a quick look at the conrods,

I was able to get my hand on 3 of them (one is hidden behind a guard of some sort) and there is a small bit of side to side movement but they seem fine,

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246kharmadog
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I think the hairline cracks are probably an illusion created by the mould that the sump was cast in. The whitish sludge could indicate water emulsifying with the oil. It's a pity you couldn't get a compression reading on #4. I'm thinking a blown head gasket at a water jacket passage by #4.
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Rob Cosworth
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** cos-rob **
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which one is normally called #4..... I couldn't get a reading on the one closest to the front of the engine (fan belt end)

thanks
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Rob Cosworth
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** cos-rob **
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It will be another week or so before my guy can look at the car and I'm thinking again about what I've found yesterday,

so bear with me... :D

whats confusing me is that the white sludge was dripping down into the sump from the rear of the engine but the compression test gave me 12 bar on rear cylinder, then 13 and 12 bar for the next two... could it still be a blown gasket or could it be something else like a damaged cylinder head or something??



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PhilG
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Who is this guy your sending the car to? I live in derry and now desperately need a front timing cover plus distributor for my 2.3L 16v, could you ask that guy?

Also, my sump has similar hairlines, that's not an issue. And I just last night fitted new big end bearings to my engine, there is about 0.5-1mm side play of the conrod big end on the crank. My big end bearing had minor marking on the thrust side at 130,000miles, they would have been good enough to go again, but I just decided to stick in new ones.

The White mess is oil water mix, ah, I think the oil drains from the head at the rear of the engine, could that be an explanation for the mix being beside cyl4?


Are you loosing coolant at all? A little crack could be opening as the engine heats up....any Mayo inside your oil filler cap?


Ps, I'll take your timing cover if your engine is fubar :-)
Edited by PhilG, Sun Nov 30, 2014 11:50 pm.
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Rob Cosworth
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** cos-rob **
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thanks Phil,

the oil draining from the rear of the head into the engine would explain it alright, oil & water could be mixing anywhere then,

I don't think I was loosing coolant, the car is off the road save for the odd spin (when it gets dark :lol: ) so I cant say for certain, no mayo inside the filler cap either,

I'll be chatting to my guy tomorrow and I'll put all of this to him and I'll ask for a timing cover also,

I'll pm you if I have any luck, ;)
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246kharmadog
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Rob Cosworth
Sat Nov 29, 2014 10:53 pm
which one is normally called #4..... I couldn't get a reading on the one closest to the front of the engine (fan belt end)

thanks
Hmmm.. No. 4 is at the rear of the engine, bulkhead end. This is what I assumed you meant, coz the other plugs are usually very accessible. Oil will float on water, so the sludge will sink to probably the lowest part of the sump. Just thinking aloud.
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Rob Cosworth
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** cos-rob **
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I've managed to find a 2.3 16v engine for sale out of a 1986 just like mine,

it has approx 120k done with a service history and he has receipts for a cylinder head overhaul at 110k,

mine for 500 pounds!!

I'll planning to travel to him tomorrow but does it sound like a fair price if everything checks out with the history etc ?

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cossie connoisseur
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there can be only one ;-)
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thats a very good price if its fully working but bear in mind it will devalue your car slightly if you sold it on as it wont have the original engine (even if its the same and in perfect condition)

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Rob Cosworth
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** cos-rob **
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good point.... :)

I think I'll take a chance on it if everything checks out,

btw, what should I be looking for on the cylinder head overhaul receipt, other than valves & seats been done etc

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cossie connoisseur
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there can be only one ;-)
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skimmed head, seated valves (multi faceted idealy), possible replaced valves, possible port polishing, and gas flowed head...
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