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ATF additive or ATF change?; Dilhema!
Topic Started: Fri Nov 28, 2014 9:06 pm (850 Views)
Gwilym
Part of things
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I've got in to a dilhema please help with your wisdom or views :help:

My auto box flares a bit, changes gear a little 'thumpily' and whirs a little too. Garage reckon the whirr indicates front auto box bearings.

Either it's going to need reconditioning or it might simply need an ATF change and precautionary T spring at same time but I'm very reluctant to spend £160-£180 on the latter because it may well be pointless.

If I put an additive "drinking" in to the auto box, £14.95, and it improves what will that tell me?

^o) ^o) ^o) ^o)

Edited by Gwilym, Fri Nov 28, 2014 9:07 pm.
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Daliscar
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Always On The Ball
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Change the filter, gasket and fluid before you do anything else. There is a ' How to' thread on this forum.
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Gwilym
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I am certainly not confident enough to do an ATF change myself at this stage so please rule it out in this thread.

My aim here is to work out how to descover if the AT performance can be improved at the smallest possible cost. At this stage.

Will putting an additive in and improving the AT performance that way, if it does improve, enlighten me about whether or not I should consider a costly ATF change at the Merc specialist or save the money and put it towards an AT replacement or recon? :blink:
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Daliscar
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Cast around for the best price for a fluid and filter change. This does not have to be a costly Merc specialist. An autobox technician or any competent mechanic would do this job for you. It should be the quickest and cheapest way of improving your autobox.



Edited by Daliscar, Sat Nov 29, 2014 9:04 pm.
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eagle3
Therapy Needed
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What Kent says about additives. https://mercedessource.com/problems/transmission/reviving-a-high-mileage-automatic-transmission

General transmission problems
https://mercedessource.com/problems/search?location=169&chassis=20&keys=
Edited by eagle3, Sun Nov 30, 2014 5:12 am.
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Gnasha
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In my limited experience there's enough OIL additives already in the oil designed by the manufacture for specific operations.

However, ZX1 is not an oil additive but more designed for metallic protection. Used in in a w201 and w140 auto box with great success.

I also put it in engines every 9000 miles. :driver:
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Gwilym
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:blink: :blink: I have now had the ATF changed and as a precaution the k1 spring kit at the Same time 'cos of flaring from 2nd to third. £165

There is very little if any difference made and the gearbox is still making a mild whirring sound so the next thing will be ATF additive.

eagle3 pointed out the same Mercedessource article I had read but it had left me confused :'( :'( which additive would be best for my issue....quote:

"I use two different brands of additive. TransX is a super thin additive that I use exclusively for leaks or problems associated with a sticking valve body. Lucas transmission additive is more viscous and I use this additive for slipping problems associated with worn clutch packs. One quart added to your transmission is recommended. Do not over fill. Remove one quart of fluid before adding or in the case of burnt fluid do a complete fluid change before adding the Lucas additive."

Here's a summary of my concerns and any advice which ATF is best would be appreciated:

Auto gearbox making mild whirring sound, always sets off in 1st so previous owner had a mod done, revs too high before changing from 2nd to 3rd but all other gear changes seem perfect if slightly thumpy which is probably Bowden cable. Also, this car is possibly always in sports mode as nothing happens when I switch between E and S?

My overriding concern tho' is the whirring which garage thinks is front auto box bearings on their way out so which ATF additive is best to buy me some time? eatpopcorn eatpopcorn
Edited by Gwilym, Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:41 pm.
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eagle3
Therapy Needed
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That sounds more like a vacuum issue with the modulator, which if you read Kent's article should be checked before considering an additive.
https://mercedessource.com/problems/transmission/does-your-automatic-transmission-really-need-replacing
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Gwilym
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Thanks for reply that is a very good point regarding the slightly thumpy gear change. That's on my list of things to consider.

AnYway my primary concern here is as I have said several times not gear changes but the 'whirring noise' which seems to be systematic of worn bearings in the gear box.

In view of this what is the best ATF additive?
Edited by Gwilym, Fri Dec 12, 2014 12:15 am.
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next2normal
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at the end of the day new box,or could try thicker atf like ford one,in new zealand we use this moreys ,can be put in autos at about 10% or more, great for diff whines,at 30% and engines 20% ish it is stocked in England http://www.moreyoil.co.nz/moreys-heavy-duty-oil-stabilizer/ this guy in england stocks it in kent United Kingdom

J E Rudolph Ltd, Kent

http://www.rudolphs.co.uk/moreys-heavy-duty-oil-stabilizer-1-litre
Edited by next2normal, Fri Dec 12, 2014 11:49 pm.
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Gwilym
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Sounds like you know what you are talking about next2normal but with what you have said about thicker oil and what Gnasha said about ZX1, I am now right royally confused what to stick in my auto box! :'( FFS! "drinking"
On top of which Kent Bergsman says something else altogether!
I thought what I'd need is something which would 'condition' the moving parts in some way?

Would you qualify why the thickener is better in my case? It's a new concept for me and one I am intrigued by eatpopcorn eatpopcorn eatpopcorn eatpopcorn eatpopcorn eatpopcorn
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Gnasha
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Gwilym
Sat Dec 13, 2014 10:58 pm
Sounds like you know what you are talking about next2normal but with what you have said about thicker oil and what Gnasha said about ZX1, I am now right royally confused what to stick in my auto box! :'( FFS! "drinking"
On top of which Kent Bergsman says something else altogether!
I thought what I'd need is something which would 'condition' the moving parts in some way?

Would you qualify why the thickener is better in my case? It's a new concept for me and one I am intrigued by eatpopcorn eatpopcorn eatpopcorn eatpopcorn eatpopcorn eatpopcorn
viscosity and the lubricating effects at various temperatures is a whole new area for discussion.

Uncle Ken does talk some sense and you could use his ideas for analysis.

ZX1 allows things to move together with reduced friction (especially when cold) without changing the characteristics of the additives in the oil

hope this helps
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Gerry Lloyd
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Monsieur
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There was a good auto box additive in the US made by 'Lucas' and sold in a white conical bottle. It brought normal shifting back for a Pontiac that used to stick between 3 and 4. However, a change of ATF has the same result, and I worked out a white-trash way to do one that makes life very easy, as long as you don't mind there being a small amount of old fluid left in there.
1. disconnect one of the two pipes that carry ATF between the transmission and the radiator at a point where you can easily place a 2 litre container under it (e.g. an ice cream container.) I think I disconnected the return pipe at its point of entry to the transmission box.
2. start the motor and run some ATF into the container.
3. refill with fresh ATF.
4. repeat above.

Obviously the more you get out of the trannie each time, the better quality of fluid change. It's easy to work out the details.
Edited by Gerry Lloyd, Sun Dec 14, 2014 3:20 pm.
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Gwilym
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Just thought I'd add that the mechanic who changed my ATF left a note I've only just noticed on the bill which says 'No debris of any concern in sump, found broken part of old dip stick'

How the hell did that happen!! :S
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Gnasha
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Gwilym
Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:52 pm
Just thought I'd add that the mechanic who changed my ATF left a note I've only just noticed on the bill which says 'No debris of any concern in sump, found broken part of old dip stick'

How the hell did that happen!! :S
well think yourself lucky it could have been something else :S
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Gwilym
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ZX1 ^o) ^o) :o

I've been to the website for ZX1 and use in Auto transmissions is not recommended

What made you think of putting it in Gnasha and is a 190 AT the same as the kind of AT you got good results using ZX1 in?
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balamb37
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I would not recommend any additives in any fluids as they already have additives in and by adding more you could tip the balance. ;)

And at best it would only disguise the symptom not cure the problem. :no: :no:
Edited by balamb37, Tue Dec 23, 2014 10:34 pm.
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Gnasha
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Gwilym
Tue Dec 23, 2014 8:04 pm
ZX1 ^o) ^o) :o

I've been to the website for ZX1 and use in Auto transmissions is not recommended

What made you think of putting it in Gnasha and is a 190 AT the same as the kind of AT you got good results using ZX1 in?
depends on the make up of the mechanical parts in the gear box, don't add if there is metal to metal parts relying on friction to function.
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Gwilym
Part of things
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B) All the different views based on members varied experiences is fascinating. B)

If 'disguising' the mild 'whirring' noise In my AT is a short term possibility then that's what I'll try and I've decided to use an oil stabiliser like Moreys but the one I can buy locally is the Lucas Heavy Duty Oil Stabiliser.

It might subdue the 'whirr' but I also understand it might not! Having a full ATF service certainly hasn't!

Next thing after that is to look in to the cost of having the front pump bearing sorted, if my mechanic is right and that is the source!(I haven't asked him his opinions what he'd do and charge yet as I am, due to plenty of experiences, very very sceptical about any 'opinions' anyone gives to me about car mechanicals!!! ^o) )

I'm very curious to see if the Oil Stabiliser does what it says on the bottle.
Edited by Gwilym, Wed Dec 24, 2014 9:09 am.
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eagle3
Therapy Needed
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If you take the box off you might as well get it all refurbed with new seals etc everywhere..you can buy full seal kits.
Edited by eagle3, Wed Dec 24, 2014 9:51 am.
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Gwilym
Part of things
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I've removed 710ml of ATF now with a little hand held 'stirrup type' pump I bought from a boat chandlers and then I added the 710ml bottle of Lucas Stop Slip.

I also noticed the Bowden Cable was completely loose so I tightened it up and pushed the locking clip in to place.

I don't think the Lucas has made a difference but the car goes through the gears much better now but I'm yet to toy with the vacuum adjuster other members mentioned so I'll come back here when I've done that.

The 'Whirr' is persisting so I may find out if the Lucas Heavy Oil Stabiliser can be added as well as the Stop Slip and will report back if I do add it. In theory it should quiet the whirring but I'm not convinced.

Thanks for all the feedback on this topic! :) :)
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