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| 190D wont start. | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:22 pm (798 Views) | |
| Bradders | Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:22 pm Post #1 |
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More than part of things
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A few weeks ago my 2.5 D refused to start. After quite a bit of head scratching and elimination work, I discovered a blockage in the outlet of the fuel tank. Blockage was cleared,pipe from the tank to the engine bay checked and found to be clear,new filter fittedand filled with fresh diesel, and still it wouldnt start. Much more investigative work, swearing, crying etc. has ensued since then, but not much progress. If I feed fuel straight to the pump the engine will fire up and run straight away,but other than that it gives the occasional impression it wants to go, but wont. I removed the lift pump and tested it by pressing the plunger in and out and it gave a healthy squirt each time the plunger was pressed. All connections have been tightened so Im pretty stumped now. The only possible problem I found is that the crush washers on the lift pump to filter head banjo bolt now need renewing. I removed the banjo bolt while searching for clues to the problem and knackered the washers while retightening. The thing is, the problem was already present then, so unless I have cured the original problem and created a new one by crushing the washers, it doesnt seem logical to pin that down as the cause. Im at my wits end with it now.Ive been working on it during any spare daylight hours I have for weeks now and dont know what to do next apart from new washers on the banjo bolt. |
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| kentronix | Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:40 pm Post #2 |
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I'm only really here for the Kitchens
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If I have learnt anything from my wagon it is to never assume it is or was only one fault. I would replace the banjo washers and go from there. Check all the unions of the rubber hoses too, often when you do lots of fiddling the metal hose clamp can cut into the fuel hose in such a way that it is hard to notice but still lets in air. I often found I fixed the initial fault but the fiddling cause an air leak elsewhere. While diagnosing I would run a line direct from the point where the metal pipe enters the bay, direct to the lift pump, and then direct to the banjo. Bypass anything you dont need, just to problem solve. Also, have you checked for a good seal on the little bit of rubber pipe that comes off injector 5 ? It should be bunged. |
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| eagle3 | Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:50 pm Post #3 |
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Therapy Needed
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Yes you'll have to renew the washers first. You can do a few things. If a diesel engine refuses to start the first I do is loosen one of the connectors at one of the injectors. Then try to start the engine on four cylinders. Any air will be pushed out through the loosened connector. If by any chance it starts on four just leave it running and tighten the loosened one up which should make that cylinder fire. Worth a try. If you have an air leak somewhere you could try putting a clear plastic pipe fore and aft of the filter and see if you can see any air bubbles getting to the injection pump.. Edited by eagle3, Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:52 pm.
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| eagle3 | Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:00 pm Post #4 |
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Therapy Needed
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Also do you need new glow plugs? |
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| Bradders | Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:20 pm Post #5 |
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More than part of things
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Have already bypassed everything up to the lift pump. Feed from tank is currently attached directly to the lift pump. Glow plugs renewed 6k miles ago,and engine starts immediately if fuel is fed directly to the pump. Several good ideas though, so please keep them coming. Planning on sourcing new washers (from MB ?) and then try out any suggestions from here that I havent already tried. |
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| jsto | Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:07 pm Post #6 |
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Part of things
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If you had a blockage in the fuel tank outlet that suggests the tank may be full of crud, not sure how to clean a tank apart from removing it and steam cleaning. |
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| kentronix | Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:23 pm Post #7 |
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I'm only really here for the Kitchens
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I replaced my banjos at the same time, I just grabbed standard crush washers from ebay, I think it was these:- http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/261589010692 Although double check that m10 is correct if you do go this route. I doubt mb would be much more expensive, it is just hard for me to get to a dealership. If you have a leak at the banjos then the fuel tends to fall backwards towards the tank when the car is turned off,meaning you have a whole lot of air to pump up through the filter before the fuel gets there. If you have any other weakness in the system it may never get there. I diagnosed mine by replacing some of the fuel hose with clear stuff. I could visually see the fuel running back to the tank when I switched it off. |
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| Bradders | Fri Dec 26, 2014 5:03 pm Post #8 |
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More than part of things
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Still no progress on this one I'm afraid. I have replaced all the banjo washers, carefully checked all pipes, fed the lift pump with diesel directly, via a funnel and a length of pipe. The only way it will run is if I feed diesel directly to the pump. When I feed diesel directly into the lift pump it does pump it out at the top of the pipe tp the filter, but is it enough ? I have also tried feeding diesel into the top of the filter head but that doesn't seem to help either I've been without the car for over a month now, and spending a small fortune on LPG for my v6 omega. Not a happy chappy at the moment. |
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| Bradders | Fri Dec 26, 2014 5:20 pm Post #9 |
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More than part of things
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One thing I wondered about. The union between the lift pump and the pipe which goes up to the filter is a metal to metal joint. Is that correct or have I lost an o ring or similar ? |
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| Greek Taxi | Fri Dec 26, 2014 5:58 pm Post #10 |
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More than part of things
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Check the STOP lever on the fuel injection pump. If it is in the down position, it won't let fuel in. I had a blocked fuel tank strainer which I replaced. Then I discovered the valve which regulates the STOP lever was also worn out. Perhaps one problem caused the other. If it's this, take a look through my posts from late summer 2013. Care is needed when replacing the valve... Edited by Greek Taxi, Fri Dec 26, 2014 6:23 pm.
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| Bradders | Fri Dec 26, 2014 6:37 pm Post #11 |
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More than part of things
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I'm pretty sure it is in the down position now you mention it.that gives me a direction to go in. Will read up on your posts on the subject. Many thanks. Will report back when I've investigated. |
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| Greek Taxi | Fri Dec 26, 2014 10:21 pm Post #12 |
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More than part of things
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http://mercedes-190.co.uk/topic/6729664/1/#new That was my fun. Good luck |
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| Bradders | Sat Dec 27, 2014 9:55 am Post #13 |
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More than part of things
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Went outside in the rain with a torch last night hoping to shed some light on the problem but despite the fact I was convinced the STOP lever was in the down position earlier in the day,I found it to be almost completely in the up position. I tied it fully up with a cable tie and tried to start the car but it was just the same. I think Im going to try and source a known good lift pump and go from there. I don't normally like throwing parts at a problem but Im going round in ever decreasing circles with this one. |
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| Greek Taxi | Sat Dec 27, 2014 2:38 pm Post #14 |
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More than part of things
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Bradders - you'll need to remove the zip tie. If you get it going with the lever tied up, you won't be able to switch the engine off. What a PITA this is proving. I'd hoped we'd have a simple solution there. |
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| Bradders | Thu Jan 8, 2015 6:54 pm Post #15 |
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More than part of things
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A resurrection of the thread but unfortunately not the car. I sourced another lift pump and fitted it but it made no difference. I have replaced all crush washers etc. and have checked that plenty of fuel is coming out of the filter to the pump. Also no sign of air in any pipes.it tries to fire but can't quite manage it. Again I fed a pipe directly into the ip and attached a funnel to the other end which was filled with diesel. The engine starts immediately using this method. After two months of trying I'm now wondering if feeding fuel straight into the pump is supplying much more fuel than it would normally receive and this could be masking a problem inside the ip. Anyone know enough about the internal workings of the pump to have an idea if this theory is feasible ?
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| Mick261c | Thu Jan 8, 2015 9:47 pm Post #16 |
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More than part of things
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Sorry to hear about your problem Bradders mate but I know sod all about the internal workings of the lift pump. I know this is a long shot but when you cleaned the tank strainer did you get all the crud out of the tank? ...as I think you may be pulling the excess through the system and this could be causing another blockage in the filter. |
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| Bradders | Thu Jan 8, 2015 9:50 pm Post #17 |
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More than part of things
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Not using the tank at all at the moment mick. Simply have a pipe from the lift pump,with a funnel on the end which is filled with diesel. Thanks for the ideas though. |
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| paulseager | Thu Jan 8, 2015 10:10 pm Post #18 |
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Part of things
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fit this on your fuel line and charge the system by hand mine starts the first turn of the key when i change my filters this will push all the air out of the feed line and back into the return pipe http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Diesel-hand-primer-bulb-pump-In-line-to-suit-8mm-fuel-pipe-/151427807064?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item2341ccf758
Edited by paulseager, Thu Jan 8, 2015 10:12 pm.
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| Bradders | Thu Jan 8, 2015 11:00 pm Post #19 |
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More than part of things
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I might just give that a go (or maybe an electric auxiliary pump ?) thanks for the idea Paul. |
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| next2normal | Fri Jan 9, 2015 1:01 pm Post #20 |
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Part of things
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=An7EQr-u0O8 https://mercedessource.com/problems/search?location=211 uncle ken got a new vid on diesel fuel tanks, he also use a pressure pump to blow the lines clean from the tank to the motor https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYzgI3LZk98&feature=em-uploademail Edited by next2normal, Fri Jan 9, 2015 1:04 pm.
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| Bradders | Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:18 pm Post #21 |
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More than part of things
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Thought I would give an update on this as I think I may have finally solved the problem. A few days ago I managed to get it started by running a pipe from a jug of diesel down into the lift pump. Previously the only way it would run was by feed the fuel directly into the injection pump. This time ( apart from the new glow plugs and battery) I also used jump leads from my omega and heated the ip, filter, injector pipes with a heat gun. I then directed the heat gun into the air intake while the engine was turning over. It took a lot of turning over but finally fired up. It didn't run for long though as the jug of diesel emptied in no time. Today I did the same thing but also placed the return pipe into the jug so it could keep running. It fired up and kept running, which allowed me to observe things in the engine bay with the engine running. First I noticed diesel running out of the base of th leak off pipe from number 5 to number 4 cylinder. Then I noticed the same thing with the pipe from number 1 cylinder back to the filter blocK. I had some plastic pipe which was slightly too small in diameter but after heating with the heat gun it pushed onto the connectors and made a tight seal. I restarted the engine after approx. 90 minutes and it fired up straight away, so hopefully I have finally got to the bottom of the issue and learned a bit more about diesels in the process. I imagine the real test will come when I try to start it from cold tomorrow morning. Wish me luck. P.s. thanks to everyone for all the help, advice and encouragement. |
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| eagle3 | Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:45 pm Post #22 |
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Therapy Needed
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Maybe your injectors need a good clean..if you can keep it going take it for a blast when the engine's good and hot.
Edited by eagle3, Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:46 pm.
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| Bradders | Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:46 pm Post #23 |
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More than part of things
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Could be. Once I get it back on the road I will run some injector cleaner through it. |
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| Daliscar | Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:23 pm Post #24 |
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Always On The Ball
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If the fuel problem is solved then the combination of new battery and plugs should make for an instant start even in sub-zero temperatures. Good luck !!
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| Greek Taxi | Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:49 pm Post #25 |
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More than part of things
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So it was an air leak? You've been unlucky there. I replaced my leak-off pipes with some from a motor factor which appeared to fit. They weeped slightly so I broke out the zip ties as I always do - but still they leaked. So I got some leak-off pipe from MB, which is ever so slightly narrower. No more leaking. But at no time did I have a starting problem with the generic pipe. Good luck tomorrow! edit - another thought - if you've been using biofuel that's probably degraded the leak-off pipes. I've had the replace the leak-off pipes on every diesel I've had. They possibly get a lot of hammer sitting on the top of the engine, where it's also hot. Edited by Greek Taxi, Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:55 pm.
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| Bradders | Tue Jan 27, 2015 5:59 pm Post #26 |
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More than part of things
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Well, it started as soon as I turned the key this morning so I can consider it fixed, which is a huge relief. Greek taxi - advice noted, and I will get a set of leak off pipes from mb ASAP. Thanks again to your good self and everyone else who offered info and advice. I'm a bit of a novice with diesels, but I've learned a bit more of late and hopefully next time I have problems it won't take me over two months to diagnose it. Edited by Bradders, Tue Jan 27, 2015 7:07 pm.
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| Daliscar | Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:04 pm Post #27 |
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Always On The Ball
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Yahoo !! Success......... Great news!!!!
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| Bradders | Tue Jan 27, 2015 7:10 pm Post #28 |
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More than part of things
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I can't dance but I was tempted to do a little jig on the drive this morning when it fired up.
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| shrekky | Tue Jan 27, 2015 7:57 pm Post #29 |
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Troll hunter
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there's only 2 things that will stop these from starting................lack of fuel, and air in the fuel ![]() |
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| Bradders | Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:24 am Post #30 |
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More than part of things
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As a diesel novice I have now learned that lesson the hard way shrekky |
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| stwat | Wed Jan 28, 2015 1:09 am Post #31 |
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I'm glad you got it sorted
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| Greek Taxi | Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:02 pm Post #32 |
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More than part of things
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Good to see it's sorted. Happy motoring! |
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Great news!!!!

9:18 AM Jul 11