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My 190e is very hard to start when cold
Topic Started: Sun Oct 9, 2016 8:30 pm (2,207 Views)
Kameeli
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I bought my first car ever 2 weeks ago which is a w201 190e, and now I have a problem because it wont start when cold.
I've been looking at other topics on this forum and seems like alot of people have had the same problem but didn't find any solutions to what the problem was... If I have the engine heater on for about 1.5 hour it will start right up! but when cold it's impossible to get it started.. I also checked if the cold start valve was working and it wasn't, when trying to start the car with the engine cold there would come nothing from the cold start injector. and I currently don't have a multimeter so I can't check if it's getting power but I assume it isn't because when I hooked it to a 12v battery I heard a click from it and saw it spout out some fuel. so maybe the OVP is bad? I don't know since this is my first car and I haven't really worked on cars before but i'm willing to learn. so anyone know why the cold start valve isn't getting power?
Edited by Kameeli, Fri Oct 28, 2016 5:02 pm.
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Kameeli
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnldiGCs71c&feature=youtu.be it should be spouting fuel out of it when trying to do a cold start right?
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balamb37
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Kameeli
Sun Oct 9, 2016 8:48 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnldiGCs71c&feature=youtu.be it should be spouting fuel out of it when trying to do a cold start right?


You are right, but it will only squirt for a couple of seconds.
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stwat
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The OVP could well be faulty due to cracked solder joints. They can be re-soldered but they are fairly cheap to buy new these days.
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rhysmangatmotorsport
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Welcome
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MercManCraig
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The cold start valve is controlled by the Jetronic ECU but is powered via the fuel pump relay. The ECU takes a signal from the coolant temp sensor to decide whether to actuate the cold start valve or not upon cranking.
It's worth mentioning the OVP relay powers the Jetronic ECU, ABS Module and the Idle control valve so as Stwat said the OVP is a possibility as it powers the ECU and it does have a bit of a reputation too !

Other possibilities

1. Break in wiring somewhere (fairly unlikely but don't rule it out)
2. Corrosion on the fuel pump relay pins causing bad connection (quite common so worth checking)
3. Coolant temp sensor defective (I've heard of these failing so not impossible, For testing purposes a 10k ohm resistor in place of the sensor will activate the cold start valve on cranking if it is the Coolant sensor at fault)
4. Fuel pump relay defective (sure hope not they are expensive)


Edited by MercManCraig, Sun Oct 9, 2016 10:13 pm.
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Kameeli
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alright I have now ordered a new ovp relay since it still had the one from factory so probably a good idea to get it replaced and if that wont fix it then Ill have to check the other possibilities. and another thing worth mentioning is that it was still delivering fuel to the csv through the fuel line but the csv just wouldnt open so I guess that means the fuel pump has no issues ?
Edited by Kameeli, Sun Oct 9, 2016 10:18 pm.
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MercManCraig
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Yeah the cold start fuel supply is just from the fuel distributor so if you had issues with that it wouldn't run at all. ;)
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Geraint
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Hi Kameeli,
I had a very similar issue with my sport line 190e all that turned out to be was a faulty OVP relay like stwat said they are available and not too expensive! there's a 10amp blade fuse which was blown on my latest one and it made mine a nightmare to start in low temperatures but when warm was ok. There's two types so be careful when ordering if not from Mercedes 2015403245 is less abs (only one fuse on the top) ill have to dig through some receipts to find the other part number for the one with Abs (two fuse OVP )

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Kameeli
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here is a pic of my ovp, what is that brown stuff on it? Posted Image
Edited by Kameeli, Mon Oct 10, 2016 9:24 am.
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MercManCraig
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Looks like manky old flux to me, Seeing as you've got it out i'm assuming you're gonna flow all the joints ? Would be interesting to see if that fixes it.
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Kameeli
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derlaudtraut
Mon Oct 10, 2016 10:17 am
Looks like manky old flux to me, Seeing as you've got it out i'm assuming you're gonna flow all the joints ? Would be interesting to see if that fixes it.
I tried to re solder but it didnt help feckknows anyway i already ordered a new one so just gotta wait for it to come
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rhysmangatmotorsport
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Just buy a new one from the dealer, my 16v one was £70 new
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MercManCraig
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I have a faint feeling that a new OVP isn't going to fix it. Out of curiosity, when you start the car and when it's running do you get an ABS light on ?
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Kameeli
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there is no abs light on the dashboard
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G3MAW
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Assuming the OVPR and Fuel Pump relays are OK, check out the connection from the starter solenoid to the fuel pump relay. This tells the FPR that the engine is cranking and energises the csv subject to the signal from the temp sensor.
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griffin
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What is the outside air temperature?
The Cold start valve should only activate at below five degrees centigrade.

Also can you check that the vacuum line that that runs from the ignition control unit to the under side of the afm rubber boot is connected at both ends.. This can make cold starts very difficult if it has come loose.

Edited by griffin, Mon Oct 10, 2016 5:48 pm.
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Kameeli
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griffin
Mon Oct 10, 2016 5:44 pm
What is the outside air temperature?
The Cold start valve should only activate at below five degrees centigrade.

Also can you check that the vacuum line that that runs from the ignition control unit to the under side of the afm rubber boot is connected at both ends.. This can make cold starts very difficult if it has come loose.

it's about 0-5 celcius outside at the moment, but it has been like this even on warmer days. ill check the vaccuum line you mentioned tomorrow
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griffin
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Scrap the below five degrees comment I made...
I think that is wrong.
But the vacuum tube stuff is still relevant
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Kameeli
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Here is also a video how the engine runs very rough after a cold start but starts to run fine after it warms up.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQYmyo-lYig&feature=youtu.be
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griffin
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Here's some material that might help you work things out...

From what I can glean from the book I got this from, one side of the cold start valve is LIVE from the ignition (when the key is in start position only) - the other side (link to EARTH) is made by the engine control unit - only until the engine is up and running. A cheap multimeter will tell you if the continuity to earth is provided by the ECU at cold starting time. If it is then the valve is faulty - otherwise you it is the ECU / other electrical item that needs investigating - which may be solved by relay that you've ordered.

A cheap multimeter is the way forward...

And I don't think your car will have a thermo-time switch - its role is replaced by the ECU

First item in table is for cold start problems
Posted Image

Right hand section is for testing cold start valve (same for pulsed and continuous systems)
Posted Image
Edited by griffin, Tue Oct 11, 2016 6:14 pm.
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griffin
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just looked at your video - sounds like its misfiring and the revs going up and down seem like idle control valve - or vacuum leak problem.

I have also noticed in the video that the ignition control unit looks like it has a rubber vacuum connector with a missing vacuum tube.

That could be responsible for the vacuum leak and ignition problems - may be - if it is missing which is difficult to see...

This is your car - the rubber connector with missing vacuum line is where the mouse pointer is - I think - unless it is something else and I'm mistaken
Posted Image

Equivalent on my car
Posted Image




Edited by griffin, Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:39 pm.
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MercManCraig
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Looks like someones been in that engine bay and had a good stir round, as griffin said take that airfilter housing off and have a good hunt round for vacuum leaks and get the vacuum line plugged back into the ignition module. Given the milage it probably would be smart to take a look inside that dizzy cap too.
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Kameeli
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I checked that vaccuum tube you mentioned and it has a transparent tube starting here
Posted Image
and ending here
Posted Image

the problem is when I get home from work it's so dark I cant see anything so I have to wait until the weekend before taking off the airfilter housing, I had it off last week when I checked the csv but didn't find anything unusual then. another thing that I noticed is that the whole engine at one spot seems to be all dirty and wet and sometimes it leaves a pool of coolant beneath the engine when parked so I think theres a very tiny leak for coolant somewhere, maybe somewhere here?
Posted Image

and the misfiring + revs going up/down only happens the first 5 minutes after starting the car when cold


hope there's no bigger problems like coolant leaking through head gasket since the coolant is disappearing every now and then and leaving small puddles on the ground... (coolant dropping into the cylinders thus making it hard to start after it's been sitting a while?) changed headgasket on my kawasaki ninja couple months ago and it was a pain in the ass most likely even harder to change it on a car

but then again it starts on the first crank if I have the block heater on for about 1½ hour so I don't think any coolant is getting inside the cylinders
Edited by Kameeli, Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:03 pm.
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griffin
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That vacuum tube looks fine.
Sounds like you're going to have a busy weekend.
Perhaps also check if the plugs are covered in oil... Same for the air filter

Edited by griffin, Tue Oct 11, 2016 9:18 pm.
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optimusprime
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Loks like its missing like the post reads .Start it in the dark look down the plug holes .Any sparks shorting out of plug lead , or the holder to the head ? Wipe out the plug holes dry them off .Could be oil leaking fron rocker box seal.
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Kameeli
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Hmm, checked the spark leads and down where the plugs are in dark but didn't see any small hint of light anywhere. I have another video here because I think the fuel pump is pretty loud when the car is running i'm not sure if thats a hint the pump could be bad? I dont know if it can be heard that well in this video but you can hear it when sitting in the driver seat and having the door open.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwMB3ZWhWLI&feature=youtu.be

I'll check how the spark plugs look and if they're oily this weekend
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MercManCraig
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It does idle high, 1000rpm is about how high it idles with the idle control valve unplugged. Quite possible that the OVP relay is defunct although from your video before it seems there are other problems too.
Edited by MercManCraig, Wed Oct 12, 2016 8:50 pm.
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Kameeli
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New ovp arrived today, didn't change anything sadly. :/
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stwat
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Is the linkage on the throttle body clicking the micro switch?
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Kameeli
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stwat
Thu Oct 13, 2016 9:59 pm
Is the linkage on the throttle body clicking the micro switch?
yup
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griffin
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Here is a link to an article on vacuum routing for 190e.
It has a thumbnail image near the bottom that might be useful for checking that all the vacuum routing is correct.
In case you have time at the weekend... :)
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Kameeli
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checked some stuff here yesterday https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jx8nvhOykU4&feature=youtu.be
temp sensor seems to be working but the csv isn't getting any power? also tested hooking up the 30 to 12v and 31 to ground on OVP then shorting it to 15 and it did say click so that should be working, did it on my old one and the new one I ordered both said click
Edited by Kameeli, Sat Oct 15, 2016 8:20 pm.
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griffin
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Hi Kameeli
Looking at your video - I have the following points...

  • spark plugs- yes they look oily - perhaps the valve stem seals need replacing - but probably not the biggest problem...
  • rubber hoses - agreed - in a very poor condition - this will be affecting any vacuum based system in the car - replacing these could have quite a benficial effect on the cars running, idling, ease of starting - remember that there are probably more pipes under the fuel metering head that are in poor condition - and even the rubber underside of the fuel metering head (the boot) might need replacing
  • the resistance of the temp sensor - it showed 1.1 K ohms - what was the temperature of the car at that time? - if it was cold this isn't right - see the graph below
  • at cold (say 5 degrees celsius) - the temp sensor should be something like 4.5K to 6K ohms
  • your video showed zero volts going to the csv when you started the car - but the car started ok - was the engine warm? - the csv only gets voltage at coolant temperatures below 60 degrees celsius - i.e. with coolant sensor resistance of 600 ohms or above
  • if your temperature sensor is defective you could try putting a 6K ohm resistors across the plug (diagonally across the connector - see image below) and seeing if you get a csv voltage/current at start-up
  • the bad rubber breather hose is probably responsible for all the oil that you noticed on the side of the engine on the intake side
  • if the coolant temp sensor seems OK (after checking the above), and you've replaced the OVP relay without any improvement, then it might suggest bad wiring - the 12 volts comes from the OVP relay - so you should have continuity from one of the CSV connector to one of the pins in OVP relay connector - the ECU provides the earth - so you should get continuity between a known good earth and the csv connector at cold start up... it seems there should always be a voltage present on the CSV - only the earth is switched on/off by the ECU

Posted Image
Posted Image
Edited by griffin, Sun Oct 16, 2016 9:26 pm.
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Kameeli
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when the temp sensor was showing 1.1k the car had ran for 1min about 30mins prior and same for when starting the car when checking the csv so it wasnt a completely cold start but still quite cold.. is it normal the output of ovp is 4 volts which mine was when i checked
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G3MAW
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Sorry to sound like a broken record, but did you check the continuity from the starter solenoid on the starter motor to the fuel pump relay? The csv will only receive power when the temp sensor sends a 'cold' signal AND when the fuel pump relay also receives a signal from the starter solenoid that the engine is cranking.
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Kameeli
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G3MAW
Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:41 pm
Sorry to sound like a broken record, but did you check the continuity from the starter solenoid on the starter motor to the fuel pump relay? The csv will only receive power when the temp sensor sends a 'cold' signal AND when the fuel pump relay also receives a signal from the starter solenoid that the engine is cranking.
well the fuel pump is under the vehicle and I dont have any jack to get it high enough for me to get down there and check it :/ any possibility to check that at the fuel pump relay connections?
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G3MAW
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The fuel pump RELAY, under the bonnet near the battery, is where the connections are. Remove the fuel pump relay and check the connections to the socket, pin 50 from the starter solenoid, terminal 50. Hope this clarifies the procedure. If this connection is broken the csv will not operate when the engine is cold. If the connection checks out Ok, change the fuel pump relay.
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Kameeli
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didnt check the fuel pump connection yet cause i have to borrow a multimeter from work first but I did change spark plugs and it fired up on the first crank in 5degrees celcius, ran smooth for 5 seconds then died and didnt want to start again cause my battery died. it has never started like that so maybe it could be some issue with the ignition system?
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Kameeli
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Took a look under the dizzy cap, are the contacts supposed to be lookin like this?
Posted Image
Edited by Kameeli, Sat Oct 22, 2016 7:44 pm.
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