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Suddenly can't start!
Topic Started: Fri May 11, 2018 8:42 am (499 Views)
Tommy190
Newbie
[ * ]
1.8 petrol.

Car has been on the road for around a month after sitting for around a year.

Has been starting with no problems.

Came to it this morning, cranking fine but dead as a dodo. Their have been no issues up to now.

Haven't checked for spark, but pulled a plug and it's dry as a bone, not wet or petrol smelling.

When I turn the ignition their is no sound from the fuel pump ( is that because it is already primed ? )

Could the filter be blocked?

What is the procedure for checking the fuel pump?

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Will
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More likely to be a fuel pump relay issue than the fuel pump itself.

It’s located behind the battery behind a black plastic panel.

If you bridge pins 30 & 87 it should run continuously for diagnostic purposes - even before you crank the engine you should hear it buzz.

Will

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optimusprime
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Fuel pressure test is needed . To do a check with out a tester, you just remove the return line from fuel distributor .See if fuel is returning to the tank . Do this while some one cranks it over . Look out for fuel that will come out of the return,hold a rag over the outlet pipe .
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Tommy190
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Ok, cheers for advice Will.

Got home from work, pulled the battery out and located what looks like two relays behind the plastic cover. There is a large black one and a smaller silver one , Not sure which one is the fuel pump relay. I wiggled the black one to make sure it was seated correctly, the silver one has a bracket attached to the casing but is just floating around in the space on its wiring which does not seem very mercedes!

Should this relay be attached/clipped down somewhere? Anyway I wiggled and tapped and slightly dissconnected it and reconnected it. I didn't want to fully disconnect it as there was not a great deal of space with the ecu being so close. Reconnected the battery, ignition on, the pump primed straight away and the car started normally!

So fingers crossed it may be just a relay/connection issue. Do relays have intermittant issues?

I will pull the relay completely tomorrow and thoughly check/clean the pins.

Is it worth energising the relay off the car and checking the resistance across the contacts?
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raglits
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The silver one is the OVP ( over voltage protection relay) and has a 10amp fuse in the tip of it, it should clip to the side of the black box around the ECU. The larger black relay is the fuel pump relay. I've been chasing issues with my recently acquired car and had the "floating" OVP too, clipped in place now.
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Tommy190
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Yes after a bit more digging and research I figured out the silver one was the OVP.

I am hoping it just turns out to be a bit of dirt or corrosion on the relay pins and my jiggling made a connection, as I said earlier I will disconnect it completely and give the pins a good clean.

However I am still not 100% sure I don't have an intermittant problem with the relay or elsewhere. Is it fairly common for the connection to the relay to cause issues?
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Will
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Sounds like your fuel pump relay is on the way out. I’d look out for another but in the mean time carry around a small piece of wire to link out the pins I mentioned above (if you look on the underside of the relay you’ll see the identification numbers for the corresponding pins).

Either a short lead with some 4mm banana plugs (same diameter as the relay pins) or you can *carefully* wrap some thin wire around the pins of the relay itself in a figure of 8 (be mindful of not shorting to any of the other pins) then push the relay back into place.

Remember either of these is an emergency ‘get you home’ solution until your new relay arrives. Once you’ve finished driving you’ll need to remove the bridge (wire link) in order to stop the fuel pump from running!
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Tommy190
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Ok will,
Does the fuel pump run continually when the car is running?

Also, does anyone know of a supplier that can supply a good quality replacement?
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stwat
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Yes the pump runs constantly when the engine is running.
The last place I bought a FPR from was GSF car parts.
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Tommy190
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Had a bit of a search for FPR, choices are
1. KPR cheap of ebay £17
2. Used genuine part £30
4. Herth and buss from germany £88
Any advice on best choice?

Who made them originally?

Will, could I carefully solder some wires to the pins you mention and run them to a switch in the cab and switch the pump on manually until I source a relay, or just leave it like that, make a neat anti theft device?

Update. Pulled the FPR out this morn, it is a genuine item pt no. 0035452005.

All pins looked clean and perfect so it looks like I may have a dodgy FPR, do they tend to have intermittant operation before they fail completely?
Edited by Tommy190, Sat May 12, 2018 11:40 am.
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Greek Taxi
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I don't know if they have intermittent operation but I'm following your thread Tommy, because in about one in 10 starts on my 1.8 it will take about 30-60 seconds of cranking to start. Fine the rest of the time.
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Tommy190
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Found a few places I can buy a used but genuine MB relay so I'll get that ordered.

one more thing that has been niggling me is the ract that as well as the FPR I also disconnected and fiddled with the over voltage protection relay, could this be the culprit and not the FPR?

ie. will a dodgy OVPR cause the fuel pump not to run?

Should I replace them both to be safe?
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optimusprime
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Yes but only replace them with the right number on the side of ovp , and fuel relay .
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optimusprime
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My w124 was rebuilt by its owner before i had it , after this problem keept stopping came along .
Only to find after it was all back in the car that problem was still there .
Reason was the ovp relay .
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Peewee
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optimusprime
Mon May 14, 2018 10:02 am
My w124 was rebuilt by its owner before i had it , after this problem keept stopping came along .
Only to find after it was all back in the car that problem was still there .
Reason was the ovp relay .
Was it that the part number on the ovp was wrong i.e. wrong part or was it a failed ovp.

If it was a failed ovp can I ask how you tested it, I know the fuses on top can be gone.
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Tommy190
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Car has been starting and running fine but it's botty twitching stuff every time I use the car. I've got a little piece of wire in the glove box ready to bridge the contacts if it happens again.

I'm going to change the fuel pump relay 1st but haven't ordered one yet as I was hoping someone would have an opinion on which one to go for in my earlier post.

I have decided to go for a new one. The three I have found are

1. An ELPARTS item supplied by Herth and Buss £76
2. MEYLE £87
3 VEMO £100

Does anyone have experience of any of these?

Edited by Tommy190, Thu May 17, 2018 6:51 pm.
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Cockney21
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I had the same thing when I first got my car, bought a new pattern part, still £100ish, 15 months later it started playing up so took a look at the original.

What happens is the high current for the fuel pump connections on the printed circuit board cause a dry joint. If you check the board with a magnifying glass you will see tiny cracks in the large solder joints. I spent 15 mins with a soldering iron reflowing the solder on all the joints. While you are there locate the relay contacts and gently clean the faces of the contacts with some fine wet and dry. Refitted the relay and it has been perfect for the last few months.

If I was to buy again I would pay a little more and get a MB one.

If you, or someone you know, is able to just remake the connections you might just get a free fix!
Edited by Cockney21, Thu May 17, 2018 8:57 pm.
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Tommy190
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Interesting cockney. I am handy with a soldering iron and at the end of the day a relay is a simple device.

Did you carefully cut the case open at the bottom edge?
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Cockney21
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The plastic cover is just a push fit with a small amount of sealant, mine came off with little effort and no damage, just get gently prise around the joint with a thin blade. Well worth having a go if only to have as a spare. The unit does more than just act as a relay for the fuel pump so it's hard to guarantee if a pattern part is to the same spec at OE part. My pattern part one started to cause the car to just cut out randomly when idling at a stop only to restart straightaway so suspect it too had started to develop poor connections.

The SL Shop will even refurb your old FPR for £100...10 mins with a soldering iron and clean the contacts is I bet a nice little earner, perhaps 30 mins even if they replace the actual relay on the circuit board.
Edited by Cockney21, Fri May 18, 2018 3:40 am.
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optimusprime
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Do wait till it wont start .Then bridge the pins as above post .The relay you have in the car now could be a good one
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Schwarzblau
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I've had a few random cut-outs over the last year, and they've been increasing in frequency over the last month.

It's done it a couple of times while driving, and it coasts for a few seconds before coming back to life; and a couple of times when idling, and then it starts again straight away when I turn the key.

My local Benz specialist has recommended changing the FPR, and I have one on order at the dealership.

This morning the old girl conked out and didn't restart immediately- and I notice the fuel pump wasn't making any noise. Came back to life after 30 seconds, which is the first time is hasn't started on the first turn of the key.

So tomorrow I'll pick up the new FPR and fingers crossed that'll be my problem solved!
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Schwarzblau
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Greek Taxi
Sat May 12, 2018 1:03 pm
I don't know if they have intermittent operation but I'm following your thread Tommy, because in about one in 10 starts on my 1.8 it will take about 30-60 seconds of cranking to start. Fine the rest of the time.
Can you hear the fuel pump when it does this?
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Greek Taxi
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I hadn't been listening, Schwarzblau. So since the last time it struggled to start I've had the cabin fan turned off and I've been listening for the pump - it has behaved since.
But just the other day my engine cut out for a second, just like you describe. Dash lights all came on, heavy steering, then a turn of the key and all was well again.

Hilarious how we all have the same problems around the same time.
What does a dealer charge for an FPR?
They probably sell a fair few of them.

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Tommy190
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Blimey quite a few of us seem to be having dodgy fpr issues.

I don't really want to start trying to fix my until I have a replacement I can fit if I end up damaging the one I am trying to fix.

My main issue is buying one I know is a good product. Can anyone recommend a fpr they know is good?

Shwarzblau how what do the dealership charge for one?
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Schwarzblau
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Dear me, my drive home from work on Friday was a flippin nightmare!

Conked out twice. Once in the middle of a double mini-roundabout, and then at the supermarket where I'd stopped to do my weekly shop. Ended up going home on the back of a tow truck, which was quite exasperating when I knew there was a FPR relay waiting for me at the dealership!

Picked the new relay up the next morning, fitted it (five minute job), and she's been good as gold since. It cost me £108 after the VAT. A lot for a diddy little relay, but when that part is stopping the car from running I'm not going to quibble! The part does seem of equal quality to the original (unlike some parts I've bought from the dealership), so I was quite pleased.


Greek- after experiencing an extended period of time sitting in a car with no power to the fuel pump, I can tell you that the silence is deafening!
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Schwarzblau
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Tommy- after looking at the prices you've found, I'd go with a dealership one for peace of mind. It really is identical to the one it replaced. Although it does have an extra pin- but I'm guessing that's for supply/inventory reasons.
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Tommy190
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Ok, I'll contact my local dealership for a price. Serious stress when your motor is misbehaving!
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Greek Taxi
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Thanks for the price Schwarzblau
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Tommy190
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Going to have to ring rouns a few dealershipd.....I just got quoted £210!!!! Derby inchcape.

Not paying that for a relay!

Shwarz which dealer did you get yours from?
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Schwarzblau
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£210 from a dealership? That's crazy!

"Mercedes Benz of Chichester" (although I'm sure it's closer to Bognor) is where I get my bits. https://www.mercedes-benzofchichester.co.uk/en/desktop/about-us/contact.html
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Tommy190
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Apparently mine is an expensive one.....typical!

Looks like I'll get one from Herth and Buss, at least they are German!
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